Ripple Effect

to paraphrase

it is as intended by whomever you think does the intending

 

Of course.

Sure.

No, as a Christian, I believe that God has given us His Word. I believe the Word of God is not intended to mean different things to different people. Neither do I believe that God would intend that different people draw different conclusions from His Word. That said, it seems apparent to me that God's Word is written cryptically, and I believe that is for a reason. I believe God wants man to work to know Him, to diligently seek Him in their lives. For this reason, God did not give us all the answers boldfaced in the open. If He had, all seeking of God would cease as soon as God's Word was understood and thereby accepted. I believe that truth is absolute, that all truth comes from God and that God has made truth available to us in His Word. I believe we must speak through the Holy Spirit and pray that the Spirit reveal to us the truth of God's Word. I do not believe we can begin to understand God's Word without God's Spirit to guide us. But that does not mean that everything I discern, or another believer discerns, is the truth God intends us to know. The natural world always tugs at us to pull us away from true discernment. Furthermore, it is difficult for any believer to separate his or her initial preconceptions from the truth that he or she might otherwise understand. Yet it must be done. It must be done because THAT is what is intended by the intender and THAT is what the intender has told us that He intends.

 

Here is where I would differ with you. But that too would seem to me as how God intended it. I figure He has His reasons though I have no idea what they are. I don't expect that I would be able to get on His level to think it out.

 

I'm sorry, but I could not pull you out on that one either. Can you restate.

 

No, I agree. I would not do that either. But God's Word does.

 

Thank you, that is what I was trying to say.

 

I believe the Word of God is not intended to mean different things to different people. Neither do I believe that God would intend that different people draw different conclusions from His Word.

This one set me aback Hank. Why would Jesus have spoken in parables if he wanted people to understand him? His is Gods words yet the stories used to illastrate how we should live our lives are stories that even his disciples didn't understand and questioned him on more than once! Everyone was always asking him what he meant. Am I wrong here? Believers (and non believers) are still asking what was meant by this or that 'something' from the bible.

The natural world always tugs at us to pull us away from true discernment. Furthermore, it is difficult for any believer to separate his or her initial preconceptions from the truth that he or she might otherwise understand. Yet it must be done. It must be done because THAT is what is intended by the intender and THAT is what the intender has told us that He intends.

"The natural world"; meaning that other than those who believe and live by the bible?

And the rest of that statement leads me to understand that even a believer can not (it's difficult) seperate his mind from the truth of the world or initial preconceptions to comprehend what God - through the bible - is telling him to discern and yet that isn't the way God intented it to be? How can it otherwise be done?

I know this is way off course but Hank you are, from what I understood, basically saying that because of the true world and how the individual person conceives that world it keeps him from divining from the bible what true discerment is intended through the Bible; but man must do this because God intends it to be that way? I know I gotta be reading you wrong here. And again I know this is way off the ripple effect. It's just so strange to hear Hank say this, I must be reading it wrong...and I read it numerous times because I was so stuck by it.
.

 

Yours is an excellent question, Holly, why Jesus spoke in parables rather than literal terms. As is generally the case, questions that arise concerning the scriptures are answered in the scriptures, just one more convicting factor contributing to the notion that the scriptures are the Word of God. When the disciples asked Jesus your exact question, why He spoke in parables, He responded:

Matthew 13

10And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'
16"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.
17"For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Most of Jesus' parables deal with what the Kingdom of God, or perhaps the Kingdom of Heaven, is like. He tells the disciples that they have been chosen to know the mysteries of the Kingdom. But Jesus also tells them that the people He would preach to would never begin to understand what He was telling them unless he boiled it down to natural terms, and even then "while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

He tells His disciples, "many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it." A couple of points here: First, according to the scriptures, that which is created is enough evidence of a Creator that all reasonable people should harken to understand it. That one fact, the one of creation itself, should provide all the evidence anyone might need to conclude that there is a Creator. Yet, according to Jesus, "seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Why is it that some folks, I believe you are included in this group, see the magnificence of all creation and naturally conclude that God MUST exist, while others see the same magnificence and, "seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Well, there are scriptural reasons for that as well and I won't go into that. Just know that Jesus prophesies that this will occur.

Secondly, Jesus understood that most folks would not begin to understand the nature of the Kingdom of God, because they were conditioned by the "prophets and righteous men" ['righteous men,' presumably the pharisees] to understand that the Kingdom coming to earth would be one of the sort they were used to, one accompanied by glorious battles, smiting of vanquished foes, triumphant parades, and a coronation of the new King. That would have been the establishment of a natural kingdom on earth, the kind the people were conditioned to understand. But the Kingdom Jesus speaks about is not a natural kingdom, but a spiritual one, one that they would not understand. And Jesus would ride into Jeruselem, not in the midst of great magnificence. Jesus rode into Jeruselem on the back of a donkey, a pure work animal, one of no magnificence, no splendor, no glory, at least seemingly. Still Jesus rode into Jeruselem, just as the prophet Daniel had said the new King would, and in the exact time frame Daniel wrote that He would. So again, there was the evidence before the people, just as they had been taught, the prophesy was fulfilled, yet the prophets and righteous men "did not see and did not understand," and they even preached against the new king to the people, who likewise, "seeing did not see, and hearing did not hear, nor did they understand."

But Jesus was here to speak the truth so that at any time, folks who were predisposed to seek the kingdom would recognize His words for what they were, truth. Those who are so predisposed are not so concerned about earthly treasures such as one might find stored away in the coffers of an earthly kingdom. These folks are concerned about spiritual treasures that might only be found in a spiritual Kingdom. Such a Kingdom is the Kingdom of God. But Jesus could not adequately describe what a spiritual kingdom might be like to folks who live in the natural. For this reason, Jesus endeavored to use natural terms that simulate what the Kingdom of God is like.

Look in your Bible. Most of the time Jesus speaks a parable, He begins saying, "The Kingdom of God (or Heaven) is like..." And then he describes the Kingdom in natural terms. Yet hearing, the folks did not hear. And seeing the miraculous performed before their eyes, as one might see in the Kingdom of God, they did not see. Still, Jesus tried to tell them the truth in a way that they could understand it. And that is why He spoke in parables. After digesting this, let me know if the remainder of your post was answered.

 

Why would God create some folks to be predisposed to seek the Kingdom and others not?

 

God creates all men with free will. I expect that whatever predispositions we entertain thereafter exist for various reasons, some of them I expect are spiritual. But we all have free will. God doesn't plant a disposition to seek Him, only a conscience so that we know right from wrong without having to be told. Now mind you, I do not speak for God. This is all in the scriptures.

 

Do you think that your interpretation is tantamount to the word of God?

 

God to Write His Law in our Hearts

The Promise

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The Fulfillment of the Promise

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


I don't see that I am interpreting anything, June. Here are the scriptures that indicate that God has written His laws on the hearts of all men, Jew and gentile, formulating the conscience. That is pretty straight-forward. How do you interpret these scriptures?

 

Was that a yes or no? If a yes, how do you account for people equally devout as you who reach different conclusions?

 

Who are these people reading these scriptures and comimg out with different interpretations?

 

I believe you have commented on that very thing in the past and seemed to be at ease with it. (the woman priest thread for example) But if you are asking me, that is the reason we have umpteen different sects and even more people who do not affiliate themselves with a particular sect.

 

The scriptures in question do not seem overly obscure, and I am not aware that there is any great debate among the sects to which you refer.

 

I'll just agree to have a different opinion than you do on this topic in general. I hope you find that agreeable.

 

I'm not even sure what aspect of this topic you are hoping I will agree to disagree with you about. If I knew what I was agreeing to disagree about, I might be more agreeable to agree to disagree. So I guess we'll have to disagree to agree to disagree, agreed?

 

You default to disagreement? Ok, your choice.

 

I wrote something else and decided it didn't makes any sense. I still see the the scriptures as being interpreted in many different ways by many different and very religious people. That's why we have so many different sects of religious beliefs.

I guess all that you said makes me wonder if the bible can be understood at all if only Jesus' prophets were allowed to see the real of it.

You do seem to confuse at times. Saying the same thing in different ways. You can befuddle me with words from the bible because I don't know any better. So I gues what you wrote was just too difficult for me to really digest and make an intelligent reply to. So much of it souded the same but different. That's why I got rid of the first one.

Can what you repied to me find it's way into the ripple effect?