Not for the faint of heart

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#attacks

 

I watched something called Burka, the canvas prison. It is horrible how they treat others especially women.

 

Well they're here and they're breeding,and my concern is after watching the events of the mosque in lower Manhattan and Iman Rauf and that Muslim love to play the victim,will our country be able to survive.They know they cannot beat us militarily but they can beat us by moving into our cities and local communities.
A writer I know writes for examiner.com.He writes an atheist column.His name is Hugh Kramer.His article today is about Muslim attacks.
BTW,I don't know how to copy and paste and insert his article into this post,but hopefully if you go to examiner.com and click on the atheism column.

 

That sure does sound incredibly intolerant and racist and demonstrates a very irrational fear of Islam or Muslims. You cannot paint every person who practises Islam with the same brush:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia

If you look at that chart, it shows a large number of people from countries that are in a bad way such as Afghanistan and Iraq. A lot of these people lack education, have no work, and thus end up doing stupid things because they have little else. They are brainwashed about a different invisible man to the point of being conned into blowing themselves up.

Now given the very high rate of homicide in the United States and given a large proportion of the US is Christian, I'd bet we could produce a similar Christian chart only with murders being perpetrated by people pulling a trigger, not blowing themselves up. By the same logic, could I then argue that here in Australia we don't want any Christian Americans infiltrating us ... afterall, aren't they all trigger-happy loons who have the need to carry concealed assault weapons?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/17/arizona-gun-law-concealed_n_541445.html

S

 

The Native Americans probably felt the same way when the Pilgrims started arriving...

 

i don't think the purpose of this board is to bash any religion. as the moderator explained, it is all about tolerance and support. we are here to support everyone. we have some wonderful muslim members and this type of post is most offensive.

 

Thank you, Steve. As a Muslim, there is much I could say in response to this thread, but I don't think it would necessarily be productive. My wish is that people of all faiths and backgrounds learn not to stereotype others or make assumptions about how large groups of people think and believe based on what they see portrayed in the media. People like my kids (who are American Muslims) have good potential to be the future peacemakers of this world, but how will this happen if they are constantly made to feel ashamed of their Muslim faith and identity? Let's take something positive away from the current political climate and learn to talk more.

 

Yet Studio 34,I have read that Muslim mosques in Australia are monitored.Is this not a sort of racism?

 

Amen & thank you Jordan. With some humble 'customization' of Jordan's post, as a Christian I feel the same way. There are 'bad apples' in every group & we shouldn't all be thrown in & labeled as radicals, terrorists, or 'intolerant Bible thumpers'. Name-calling & hatred NEVER accomplish anything productive.

 

No idea if they monitor mosques but whether or not they are is meaningless in terms of your question. So what does it mean when the police tap a phone line of a known group of radical Christians who are against abortion for example? Is that rasicm? Of course not. They do it because they know that within the ranks of these sorts, and given the climate and feeling towards abortion in the US -- particularly fundamentalist Christians -- that there will almost certainly be another religious nutter who will sooner or later pop up, grab a gun that is so easy to obtain, and take a shot at one of these doctors (it's happened a few times). It makes good sense to keep one's fingers on the pulse of high risk groups. The British were certainly monitoring the RIA when they were blowing up pubs in London. Surveillance is done in all sorts of places, targeting all sorts of groups where the risk may be higher than normal given a political climate.

Your open comments saying "they're here and they're breeding" is extremely bigoted. Hitler would have said the same about the Jews and look what happened there? Sadly, some people just never learn.

S

 

The fact is that they are here and they are breeding and they're getting stronger.Currently in the United States there are 18 million Muslim infidels.How many Jews are there in Saudi Arabia?I dare say in all probability none.
That's the problem we in the West have-open borders.I have a friend,a Jew,born in Mumbai.She just returned to the United States after visiting her family in Israel and visiting friends in London where at one time she was employed.She said Muslims are everywhere in London.They're on welfare.They grab as much from the government as they can.
If you haven't done so already,subscribe to jihadwatch.org/

 

Sounds like your solution is to get out the barb wire, round them all up and fire up the ovens. I think the world has seen this before with the treatment of the Jews.

Growing up in the 60's as a white male I remember when "one of those people" moved in our neighborhood and the fear was they were going to take over the neighborhood, they all are on welfare and the term breeding was used. I thought we have moved past these kind of prejudices and type casting. Obviously some people still long for racial or religious divide.

I think your way of thinking Barnyard is way more dangerous to the fabric of our country than any perceived foreign threat.

 

My concern is for the way radical factions treat women, The video I watched showed that the Burka is not just clothing it's like a prison that keeps women segregated from everyone else. Their children never get to see their mothers face or hear what her voice truly sounds like. In some area's women can still be sold or killed at their husbands or fathers discreation.

 

Hi Karen,
I won't attempt to discuss Afghanistan in much depth because I have never lived there and do not know all of the dynamics of what is going on and how people live. I do believe, however, that there are injustices committed against the women, the children and even the men who live there. As Scott/Studio alluded to above, this is a very poor country, and a large percentage of people are both uneducated and unemployed. Educated Muslims know that this is not what Islam wants for people. When women and others are oppressed in Afghanistan, it is not due to Islamic teachings...it is due to people who do not comprehend Islamic teachings. If the people were more educated, they would be able to improve their conditions. While living in the U.S., I knew a number of people from Afghanistan, and they were decent, hard-working people. Some were very educated and studying to be doctors and other professionals. A lot of these people have returned to Afghanistan to rebuild their country even though it would be so easy to stay in the U.S. and make lots of money. After all, who wants to live in a war-zone?

Here in Jordan (where I currently live), women do not wear the burka, but some wear a similar garment called the khimar, which covers the whole face, including the eyes. Jordanian women are, generally speaking, educated women, and they are not forced to wear the khimar. This is a country in which it is not mandatory to cover the head or face, and many women wear typical Western attire.

One of my husband's sisters wears the khimar because she feels comfortable wearing it. No one asked her to wear it...in fact, some family members suggested she not wear it. Two of my other sisters-in-law also cover the face but leave the eyes exposed. In each case, it was their own choice to cover the face. I myself have experimented with covering the face and think it is useful in some circumstances...however, I have opted to just cover my body and hair, which is more typical in Jordan and meets the minimum requirements for modesty in Islam.

What I would like to convey here is that you cannot judge a woman's life in another country by the standards you live by in the United States. Countless times, I have heard Muslim women in Jordan say they feel sorry for Western women because they expose so much of their bodies in public and allow themselves to be sex-objects. In many ways, what they say is true. Haven't you ever cringed when seeing a young girl wearing provocative clothing in the presence of leering men? That is not something I would want for my daughter or any girl. It is really a matter of perspective.

Regarding the burka, the women who wear it only wear it when they are outside the home. Therefore their children are able to see what their mothers look like each and every day.

I am a little busy at the moment but will try to add more thoughts later.

 

Good blog in today's N.Y.Times:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/the-meaning-of-the-koran/?hp

 

I tried to stay out of this, but I cannot stand such blatant ignorance and bigotry. I 'll make my remarks and then stay away from this thread.

First, Barnyard, where did you get the number 18 million--try more like 1.8 million. My source is the Pew Survey--the link to this is above in the thread, Are We religious? This is likely the most thorough and respected survey of religion in America. It indicates that .6% of Americans identify themselves as Muslim. The IDIOT who came up with the figure 18 million likely never made it through 5th grade math where they teach you convert percents to decimals and then multiply. Actually, if someone really thinks there are 18 million, they likely used a calculator but were too stupid to realize that it requires 6 zeroes after the 18 to come up with that figure.

Breeding? Like livestock? or like my relatives, many of whom likely were incinerated because they were Jewish. My mother and grandmother happened to be the lucky ones who spent three years in a prison camp where they didn't execute them--excuse me, let me use the correct term, "exterminate", like we would insects.

And you have a friend who has been to London and all the Muslims there are on welfare? I have a friend in Dallas and he says there are black people on welfare--can you imagine that? Since my grandson is 3/16 African American, using the reasoning of some, he is doomed to a life on welfare because of his genes. Guess I should increase the amount of money I put away for him since all those niggers are on welfare.

Get my point? To quote a profound line from the Killer Angels (the book on which the movie Gettysburg is based), “only a pee-wit judges a group as a whole”. There are a billion Muslims on the planet—to make any blanket statement about them is preposterous and bigoted.

If you want to use real life examples, how about my former student who has been a Christian missionary in a city of 100,000 (that is “one hundred thousand” in case your math needs refreshing) in a country that is 99.8% Muslim. In one more than a year, they have only converted 4 people to Christianity. Their witnessing of the word of Christ has not been ridiculed, attacked, or scorned. The Muslims, for the most part, have accepted them with open and loving arms. Tomorrow, some zealot may bomb their home. But tomorrow, a Christian zealot may bomb an abortion clinic. There are extremists in every group, but to judge any group by its worst element is not only grossly unfair, but exceedingly ignorant.

We all have a certain amount of ignorance—part of being human. As long as that ignorance isn’t translated into the propagation of malicious and mendacious statements that have the potential to fuel the fires of prejudice and divisiveness, then you’re entitled to your ignorance. Once it does take the form of hate mongering, you can expect an arrogant hothead like I to kick your ass.

Out of respect to Ray, I’ll not say another word on the subject. I suspect my vitriolic response to a virulent notion is well noted.

 

I'm going to say up front that I really don't like the Burqua. It makes me uncomfortable. I do find it a symbol of female repression. I do wonder at the logic of wearing a garment which is intended to NOT draw attention to the wearer, in a Western democracy where that very same garment WILL draw attention to the wearer, by being so out of step with what everyone else is wearing. BUT maybe that is MY problem and I need to get over myself and be more tolerant.

Some countries are seeking to "Ban the Burqua" (as France just has). I find this an odd development in a post feminist world. Women have fought for decades for the right to dress as they choose. Will those same feminists now stand up and fight for the right for their sisters to wear Burquas if they so choose?

As far as I am aware however, the Burqua is not actually a requirement of Islam. If my understanding of Islam is correct, Islam requires "modesty" in dress of both men and women. The Burqua, the Niqab and the Chador are, to my understanding, cultural rather than religious. Many people confuse the two, including many Muslims. There are many things which are done in the name of religion but are not actually required by that religion. Female genital mutilation for example. But is Judaic male circumcision any less oppressive? The baby boy cannot choose to not be circumscised, so he is having a religion-based irreversible body modification taking place, without his consent. Where do we draw the line?

Bottom line - western democracies are based on tolerance of all cultures and all religions. There is a separation of church and state. The US was FOUNDED on religious freedom. That freedom applies to Muslim Americans as much as Christian, Jewish, Hindu and even (heaven forbid!) atheist Americans.

Western democracies are also based on freedom of speech. The line between what is free discussion and what is bigoted and/or offensive is fine. In other threads on this forum people (generally of Christian faith) are complaining that others are being disrespectul of their faith. I guess a good test is to switch around the words "Christian" or "Muslim" and "atheist". So, Barnyardbird - for your post above how would we feel about:

The fact is that they are here and they are breeding and they're getting stronger.Currently in the United States there are 18 million Christian infidels....She said Christians are everywhere in London.They're on welfare.They grab as much from the government as they can.

Or how about this: I watched something called Yarmulke, the canvas prison. It is horrible how they treat others especially boys.

 

I'm wrong but you're also wrong.According to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/list_of_countries_by_Muslim_population
there are 2,454,000 Muslims in the United States.
So I guess that would make you just as much as an IDIOT as I am,right?

 

On second thought - disregard what I've just posted. Jim1884again has said it SO much better. Hear hear Jim.

 

give me a break--any college freshman knows that Wik is not a valid and reliable source of information--not one of the high school teachers in my city allow it to be used as a source for any term theme or essay--but, to be fair, let's assume for the sake of argument, there are 2,454,000 Muslims in America--any literate 3rd grader knows that my figure (which was meant to be an estimate) is 654,000 off, your original would be 15,546,000 off--in other words, your original figure of 18,000,000 suggests that one in about every 17 people in America is Muslim--my original figure suggests one in every 172 is Muslim--if we accept your second figure, then one in every 126 people in America is Muslim--both Wiki's figure and mine put the Muslim population at less than 1%, whereas your original puts it at 6%

BUT!!!, what would it matter if there were 18,000,000 Muslims in the USA? the math is not the real issue (if it were, you have already lost miserably in the debate)--the issue is lumping those people together as a whole, making inferences, assumptions and pejorative remarks about them--acting as if they are somehow a threat to you or to us anymore than a Jew, a Hindu or an atheist--that kind of thinking justifies discrimination, justifies taking the rights away from some based on race or religious affiliation and that is something nobody in America should tolerate

again, each person is to be judged by their actions as an individual, not as a member of a group--it is as simple as that, but when one makes statements like "THEY are breeding" and "THEY are on welfare", it dehumanzies the group, and it makes it easier for one to slash freedoms based on group membership rather than the merits of one's individual actions--my moral opposition to this will never waiver

I'll shut up now--I am guilty of not providing support but of rebuking another, but that only proves I have violated decorum, not that I am wrong