Fred Phelps church rides crazy train to Supreme Court

You may not have but there are a lot of Americans who cannot distinguish what is said in the bible from reality -- such as the non-existence of evolution (the result of which has seen some States such as Texas wanting "the other side" added to science textbooks) or then the latest stats which shows that over 40% of Americans believe the earth is only about 6,000 years old and that we co-existed with dinosaurs. Shocking state of affairs and a real worry if you ask me.

 

Yep we sure are stupid.

Nice diversion/redirect btw.

 

The Shape of the Earth
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the Earth,and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain,and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.
Mat 4:8 Again,the devil taketh him up into an exceedingly high mountain,and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world,and the glory of them.

 

And the contradiction is whatn Barnbird? Out of all of the meaningful differences in the law of the OT and grace under NT that you could have cited as a seeming contradiction, you cite two verses that have so seeming relationship to each other, one frought with symbolism, the other an event in the life of Jesus, and you cite what you see as a contradiction concerning the shape of the earth, as if the shape of the earth is germane to either of the verses? I dunno. You'll have to explain this choice.

 

I didn't say that, you did.

There are a number of reasons that promote this sort of ignorance – that the bible is the actual word of a god and is to be taken literally word for word.

Eduction level



Region of the US where you happen to live



Religious group to which you belong



How often you go to church



There are bible literalists in the UK, Canada and Australia too; however, the numbers are (thankfully) much, much lower.

 

For enough bible contradictions to choke a horse, have a look at this website where you'll find about 100 of them to start:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

 

No, you did. People see that, maybe you don't.

Still, nice diversion/redirection.

(nice charts btw, ever think of posting in the Masterdebaters thread?)

 

This Phelps character isn't the devil nor is he, despite what he may claim, a Christian. He's a lunatic. Not sure what category of lunacy - something big on delusions. Apparantly not the flavour of lunacy which can have him committed to an institution, unfortunately. Given that he spews forth hate mongering nonsensical bigotry I think the responses of the passers by are great - their laughter takes the fire out of his brimstone. A giant, collective rasberry.

 

Yep, and on topic too!

 

Yes, definitely. The bible certainly says some very good things about the virtues of compassion and kindness for example. I imagine the ones who do not take everything in it literally would be those who read it for those types of reasons. But it becomes a real problem when literalists on the Texas board of education (happened in Maine too I believe) want to remove the words evolution from a textbook or insert intelligent design into a science book as an alternative view. That's when i get bent out of shape.

I don't see how ignorance automatically equates to stupidity TM53. I don't understand rocket science or brain surgery. Does that make me stupid?

 

One:
Am I reading correctly that Hank is basically saying that there are two options: follow morality as established by Christ or make it up yourself? If that's the case that makes NO sense at all. For starters there are a bunch of other religions, and by "bunch" I mean "a lot" (two words). We also have philosophy, millenia of great thinkers and movements (Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, the Renaissance, secular humanism), ethics, the law, logic, the arts and on it goes.

Two:
If some parts of the Bible are not true, some are true and some are allegorical how do we recognise which is which? Are they sign posted with sub headings like "parable", "fact"? That would be helpful. This is actually a serious point - nutjobs like Phelps pick and choose bits from the Bible to suit their wackiness.

 

Imnoscientist
I've replaced the word God with the word Hank,like in "kissing hanks ass".Haven't you read that on the internet?Google,"kissing hanks ass" without the quotation marks.

 

Intrepid:"Actually he has said the Bible is the word of God and as such accurate and true."

Uh, no. And for someone who has of late so vigorously insisted that folks only speak for themselves, it seems, again the term, hypocritcal, for you to pretend to speak for me, even misquoting me as you have. So yes,let's stick to your moral statement that people should speak for themselves, and not for others, and refrain from misquoting each other, deal?

Now what I have said is that it matters not to me whether the Bible is entirely literally true, as if certain events depicted, say Jonah being swallowed by the whale, happened on a Tuesday in February. No, I do not expect that is the case. Maybe it did. But I don't care. What I do care about is that the principles established in the Bible are true and that the Bible is truly the Word of God and that in these scriptures, whether they literally true or not, mankind can discover what God feels is important for man to know as he goes through life.

Were Adam and Eve real people? Who knows. But did God create man in His image? Absolutely. Is there absolute good and evil in this world? No doubt. Is God good? Fortunately, yes. Is there a spiritual force of evil, that opposes what is good and godly in this world? Oh yeah there is. Is man fallen to sin, disobeying God's will? Yes, he is. Is man culpable to a higher power than himself, that power being God? Absolutely. Did Eve eat an apple and give one to Adam? Don't know, don't care.

What is important in the Bible is that the principles established in it are true, that God is literally real and the source of life and all things good; that Jesus really came to earth, literally, as the Son of God, and that He died for man's sins. That is all true, literally true. That is what I believe, but I do not know, nor care, if Jonah was really swallowd by a whale or whether the Adam was an individual, or whether the story of Eden is true or story that simulatates what is true as an allegory. Either way, it would be the principles established in these accounts that are important, not the accounts themselves.
I do believe that at some point in the OT, the events certainly became literally true and historically accurate.

But what is intriguing and amazing about the Bible it that if it could have been written my men, it wouldn't have. If it would have been written by man, it couldn't have. The more thourough one understands what is written, the more convinced of that one becomes.

 

I'm not getting this Hank. On the one hand you are telling us that no man or men could have come up with all that the bible encapsulates, that it could only be the work of a divine being -- that the "Bible is truly THE WORD OF GOD". You then go on to say that the whale probably didn't swallow Jonah, Adam and Eve may never have existed etc. So why did God write about a whole bunch of things that probably never actually occurred? Afterall, it's his/her/ it's word. Wouldn't it make more sense to actually write about events that really took place to illustrate this god's message? And because none of it is sign-posted to sort the wheat from the chaff, we end up with a large chunk of people taking it all literally and screwing it all up.

My last point I wonder if you could explain is what YOUR definition of evil is. I mean what is it? Define it so that it works for every sane individual on this planet. I'm not talking about the psychologically deranged such as a serial killer either. That's mental illness.

 

barnyardbird:Quote from: Henrysullivan on Today at 08:42:12 pm "And the contradiction is what Barnbird? Out of all of the meaningful differences in the law of the OT and grace under NT that you could have cited as a seeming contradiction, you cite two verses that have no seeming relationship to each other, one frought with symbolism, the other an event in the life of Jesus, and you cite what you see as a contradiction concerning the shape of the earth, as if the shape of the earth is germane to the meaning of either of the verses? I dunno. You'll have to explain this choice. "The contradiction is that astronomical bodies like the Earth are spherical.It's impossible to see other kingdoms when you climb to the top of a mountain.It's like if you were to climb to the top of Everest.Could you see North American from the top of Mt.Everest?Of course not."

But look Barnbird, you don't even cite in all that we can't even see Satan, for Satan is a spirit, not a man. Yet Jesus could see Him plainly. So if Jesus, Son of God, is having a conversation with Satan, a spirit, then the place this occurs is likely not in the natural world, but in the spiritual world. This altercation betwen Jesus and Satan occurres after Jesus had fasted and prayed for 40 days and nights. Prayer and fasting is the way that men become closer to the spiritual world. And what Satan offered Jesus was all the spiritual kingdoms of the world. What spiritual kingdoms, you ask. In Ephesians, the apostle Paul explains that the real struggle in this world is not in thr flesh, but rather against spiritual influences from kingdoms and principalities in high places. These high places are beyond the spiritual divide. We can't see these kingdoms and principalities. But if we were given access beyond the veil, access we may have after praying and fasting for 40 days, we certainly could see them.

So what may seem an inconsistency in the scriptures at first glance, when understood within context, make perfect sense with each. But to get to the point that one can begin to understand what these scriptures mean, one must give it some effort. But there are no inconsistencies in the scriptures you cite that cannot be explained if put into proper context.

 

I deleted my post as I don't think we're going to get anywhere - not being snide or a smart ass but nor do I see the point in us going over old ground.

 

Studio: "So why did God write about a whole bunch of things that probably never actually occurred? Afterall, it's his/her/ it's word. Wouldn't it make more sense to actually write about events that really took place to illustrate this god's message."

A fair question, Scott. The bible illustrates what God wants us to know through stories that on the surface happened to people like us. But some of this is symbolic. I will give you an example.

According to the story of Noah, while on the flooded earth in the ark, God tells Noah to send a dove out to fly. If the dove comes back it found no place to land. If it doesn't come back it did find a place to land and to steer the ark in the direction the dove went.

Now the dove represents two things in the scriptures, the Holy Spirit and Peace. In the book of Matthew, the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove, comes down from Heaven and rests upon Jesus. Jesus was then led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness where he had an altercation with Satan. Jesus was led by a dove, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of peace. Noah was led by the dove, the Spirit of God, the spirit of peace, to a peaceful conclusion to the travails he had been experiencing.

Then, in His final imstructions to His disciples, Jesus told them to preach the gospel to all corners of the earth. He said to extend their peace (throw out a dove) into each home they encounter. If their oeace finds a receptive household, the peace will land, just as Noah's dove would land. When that would happen Jesus instructed His disciples to remain in the home and tell them about the good news of the kingdom of God come to earth. But if the peace comes back, that is, if the dove has no place to land and returns to them, then they are to shake the dirt from their feet, leaving the house and keep looking for a place for the dove, meaning the Spirit of peace, the Holy Spirit, to land. Where the Holy spirit finds a hospitable environment to land,as if it lands on someone who is receptive to hear about the Kingdom of God come to earth, the spirit of God will convince the receptive individual of its truth. But when the individual is not receptive, the Holy Spirit is not interested either.

I tell you this to illustrate that the Bible scriptures are written in layer after layer of meaning. Some is literal, you bet. Some is figurative, no doubt. Some is spiritual. But whether the stories are literally true, or figuratively true, they are true as to God's intentions for what men should know as truth. So it really doesn't matter if they are literally true, what matters is that the principles the stories establish are true. Those are the lessons of the scriptures, not just the stories, that illustrate the importance and meaning of the scriptures.

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

Intrepid:"Why do you need to be hungry and thirsty to be close to the spiritual world?"

Another fair question. I will answer. Spirits in the spirit world need no food. Food is something we need only in the natural. So when we fast, denying the natural need for food, the closer we become to piercing the veil of the spiritual world. It is an act of denying natural realities, and displacing them with spiritual realities.
Fasting is accomanied by prayer. Prayer is the way we communicate with God. John tells us that we should worship God in spirit and in truth. To worship in spirit, one must come in communion with the spirit. To do that we deny the natural and displace it with the spiritual. The result is to deal in full truth, untainted by the inflences of the natural world.

Fasting is a way to get closer to God, and also the power of the Holy Spirit. Like juicing up in the Holy Spirit.

The disciples had been trying to cast out a particularly stubborn demon one day. Jesus had given them authority over demons. Yet this demon wouldn't budge. They called jesus who cast out the demon without delay. They asked him why they had been unable to cast out the demon. Jesus answered that these kinds of demons only come out after much prayer and fasting. The lessen is that prayer and fasting allows access to spiritual realities, one reality of which is spiritual power, the power of the Holy Spirit.

It is now late and I am going to bed. I hope I answered your questions.

 

Scott, vis 'Evil' - sadly I don't think all serial killers are mentally ill, nor are they 'evil'. You may find this book interesting: 'Speaking with the Devil - Exploring Senseless Acts of Evil' by Carl Goldberg. He makes a distinction between 'evil' and 'malevolence'.

Barnyardbird - I googled 'Kissing Hank's Ass'. Very funny stuff. Will post a link in the fun and games area.