depression and meniere's

OK folks I have to wade in to the quagmire with my pennies worth (and I was a qualified psych nurse)

You all have made valid points

One has to remember that there is depression AND Clinical Depression...the difference ??? In clinical depression you actually have an imbalance in the level of goodie thingys in your brain ie endorphins, seratonins and the like and clinical depression is much harder to treat than just depression.

We all get depressed at some time in our lives, we feel "down", a bit helpless and unmotivated and feel that it is all just too hard This is the type of depression that is more likely to respond to exercise or as Lisa said the "get yourself busy" kind of thing.
The 'scary" kind of depression is more likely to be the chemical imbalance kind of depression...it is something that no matter what you do, you just feel awful and often have thoughts of self harm come with this kind of depression. You are basically out of the reality of life.

I have had both kinds of depression but have only needed AD's on 2 occasions. The first was over 10 years ago when a relationship went sour and left me wanting to drive my car into the wall...it was scary for me because I had never felt like that before and I did seek professional help...it was my counsellor who thought that AD's would help and my PCP prescribed Zoloft....it made a huge difference, got rid of the self harm thoughts and I finally 'came' alive after 3 months of pure hell where my work and friendships were suffering badly. I only took it for 3 months and then weaned off it with no problems, but continued the counselling until 'all better' LOL

The second time was due to a work situation in which I feared for my life and eventually lost my 33 year nursing career. It also set the beast in hyperactivaton again I got to the planning stage of 'offing" myself with this chemical depression (and as a nurse of many years I really knew how to do it...they were not going to find me until it was too late) It took quite a few goes before we found an AD that worked for me and I remain on it to this day. It literally saved my life, something I am eternally grateful for now. I was having counselling and great support from my docs but that didn't do squat, I had a severe chemical imbalance that had to be fixed and eventually Effexor did just that.

Since the beast went into overdrive I have lost my remaining balance organ and am now very disabled due to the MM/AIED effects on my balance system...it is enough to make anyone feel totally useless and worthless (I am almost totally housebound, not due to fear or anything like that, but cause the balance causes me mucho probs) but I don't, and I attribute that to the AD's keeping my chemicals in the right proportions. I would like to go off them one day but know now is not the right time.

btw people Valium alone is never used for depression...it can actually make it worse for some people...it is an anti-anxiety and vestibular suppressant agent, not an AD.

Johhny, I can feel your pain man, don't give up please. please...things will get better...do you have any access to the help mentioned by Spinstops ??? Please feel free to PM me if ya just want to vent or ask questions

OK had me say now Meds work for some but not all and yes they can be a bitch to get off but VERY gradual weaning is usually the way to go, like over many weeks, not days

Oh and I agree with Nassman in that ANYTHING you put in your body needs to be thoroughly researched by YOU beforehand

Maggie

 

I agree a great deal with what Maggie has been writing. I am a long timer who has Meniere for more than 35 years and depression runs in my family. After the labyrinthectomy I felt great and thought normal life would start again. No, not really, as some years later the other ear got sick and hearing went down immediately. And a "kind" : : physican told me that I would become deaf soon. Bluntly said, without any feeling. It really hit me and together with all other problems we had since we were immigrants and I still hadn't settled down very well and was homesick (who is not when you get Meniere straight after arriving at the other end of the world!), I got a real bad depression and it also got worse as my husband only heard me saying: I want to go back home! And he did not like me to say that and we did not talk well enough about what was bothering me. At that time he did not understand what Meniere really was like.

That depression was a dangerous one, I forgot completely that I had children and wanted to die, a.s.a.p. When the phone went, I let it ringing, when someone knocked on the door, I was in hiding.

If such a depression is lurking, get a.s.a.p. to see a very good doctor, in my case I called the Help Telephone finally and they really helped me, getting a name of a psychologist of the old system: Freud etc. He talked and let me talk for years, and I trusted him finally. Through him I was sent to a psychiatrist to get AD as my previous physican had put me years before already on Ativan and told me to use that till I would die. Got so addicted to it, and could not get rid of it.

The psychiater tried several Tricyclics AD on me and finally got the right one, but a tough one: Doxepine (Sinequan). I never react well to any sort of medication, painkillers also don't do a thing to me. So he checked every time through taking weekly blood tests to see whether the stuff was in my blood. Normal doses were not absorbed, only when I went up to 800 mg a day, till I was feeling like a zombie. But could cut it down later after it had done some work already. The advantage of that AD was that I was not in need of the Ativan anymore, as it cuts out the addiction of tranquilizers and acts as a good anti-depressant. It took me a long time to become normal again, but the end-result was that I started to study at varsity and did this for 6 years. Got a job there too, and the hearing trouble did not worry me that much anymore, got used having only one bad ear that could hear.

So after some time I had no AD's anymore and no tranquilizers and had a much better life and did NOT TURN DEAF, as the doctor had said so nicely.

Now, about 22 years later, I had several times since some years, that the pit was closeby again, but I knew how to deal with it. I indeed was told by my own physician to see a psychotherapist, when I lost my job and the hyperacusis and the vertigo + hearing loss were very bad. But that therapist had no idea what Meniere means to a person, so all she did was talking about the loss of something, in my case: the job !!! And I had to see a psychiater again: rules of the center where I was sent to. And he prescribed again AD, but the old fashioned ones were no good anymore and the new seretonin ones were TOP. He tried out many on me, but most did make the tinnitus getting worse. He really got irritable, when I showed him the list of medicines which increase tinnitus. All American stuff, he said, we don't use that. And the risk of seeing a psych is: it gets in your files and they travel to all specialists you see after it. And I noticed that many specialists did not even take physical problems serious. Till I once opened the envelope and read the letter the psych had written to my physician about me: I was an anxious woman, preoccuppied with Meniere, and reading and going on the Internet all the time to search and get info about Meniere. Manipulating her husband and lots more. Stupid me, I had mentioned that I wrote with the forum and they gave me lots of help. And yes, in 2002 I indeed read sometimes some articles given here on the Forum. It is my head and my body, so why not get more info about it as the specialist in my own country (the Netherlands) did know zilch about Meniere.

I use now a serotinine one after using Prozac, Seroxat, Efexor and many other minor ones, but they only made the tinnitus worse. The name is unpronouncable to me, I call it Fluvoxamine, but my book says it can have the name of Fevarin. Whether it helps me, I don't know. I increased it these last 2 months to 2 a day, before one a day but the prescription says 3 a day. I hate it to be poisoned by so many pills. Only the ones I really need,e.g. Thyrax for a slow working Thyroid and the diuretics (also less now), I accept and they do their job. So I will stop this too again, I want a healthy body and only medication which I really need.

We have to be so careful what is being advertised and what even the physicans take for being good for you. We are all individuals and some people are cured by an Asperin, while I do not react at all to normal painkillers and also never have a high fever, although I had pneumonia years ago and hardly had a raised level, only just above normal.

To people who are slightly depressed, and not dangerously so that they forget all about life and people and only see the pit, do what Linda said. I wished I could do that now too. Going to see a psych is for me out of the question. And a therapist too, as I cannot even hear them. And talking is very hard too as the pulsatile tinnitus makes talking for me also very painful and raises the height of the tinnitus and the loudness of the banging of my heart. In the Centre where my Audiologist works is also a very good social worker, who understands Meniere much better than all the psychs do in hospitals, psychiatric centres etc.

Walking outside is a nightmare now. They are building really everywhere around me. Big trucks drive past my house every day, hardly being able to get past parked cars. And meeting another one is causing even more congestion. Those chauffeurs are real good drivers! They haven't even scratched one of the local's cars. Behind me there are many rental houses and they all are, block by block, done up at the outside. New tiles on the roof, new window frames, newly cemented in between the bricks, central heating in all of them. And that has been going on for about 1½ year already and the building opposite me for about a year and lots more is to come. The footpaths are neglected and some holes in them. The roads even more because of the trucks. I cannot go out without my walker, as I can't handle the thing now. I am waiting for good weather so Ruud can take me out in the car and we can go to quieter areas - here I live amidst a sort of building factory. I practise sometimes on the hometrainer, but my balance is very bad and I fell off twice.

So I truly do as Gardenfish said: some days I just can't deal with the depression and the very bad PT. I have no normal tinnitus anymore, no vertigo attacks, only the PT. But going back to the time before the PT got out of hand, would be preferable now. Sounds strange, but it is really true.

Other days I talk to myself: pull yourself together and read, specially on the computer, as then I can sit straight up and look in front of me. Normal reading makes my neck ache. I am politically minded so I write to whatever interests me. Makes me forget my own troubles. And I stopped the stupid Xanax that the ENT specialist (did not even have his PhD yet !!!) prescribed for pulsatile tinnitus. That stuff too made me so sick and the PT got worse. Still have to inform him and want him to read Timothy Hain's article about normal tinnitus and pulsatile tinnitus. But how do you get specialist to do what you want.

And no hanky panky anymore with AD for me. But for other people I leave that question open. It might help others a lot, but not everyone. And if you are in a dip, then follow Linda's advice. Be aware however, what kind of depression you have, if you have the bad sort (you will be the one who can diagnose yourself about it!) then ask for help a.s.a.p. And approach someone who indeed will help you.

Sorry, this is a Marian's advice again, too long, but I have Meniere for so long and went through so much in my life.

Hope that the ones who need good advice, will read this all and act wisely. Your body is so important and your life even more! Take care of it!

Marian

 

Maggie and Marian, you explained it much more eloquently than I could......thanks. Glad you both have gotten help. No matter how bad MM can get, nothing is as bad as severe depression. At least in my opinion. Lisa

 

I have to agree with Lisa "nothing is as bad as severe depression" I have it and if not for my psych and my therapist, he does talk theraphy and given me relaxation tapes to listen to which has worked wonders for me. I also am on meds for me depression. Good Luck & Best Wishes to any that suffer with depression of any level my prayers are with you always.

 

So very often we forget that it is possible to express one's views - without treading on eggshells - with simple consideration. To someone who's been helped by AD's, your description of Remeron as chemical filth sounds unnecessarily harsh. I would have said something like "It doesn't agree with me but may help others" - is that treading on eggshells?

You are describing your exerience with one single drug, namely Remeron. Some people have to try many different drugs before finding the one that helps them and some people never find it. Some can be helped tremendously by psychotherapy and some have a depression that so intractable nothing can help it except very heavy doses of drugs.

You have recommended a book, let me also recommend one. It's called The Noonday Demon by Andrew Solomon. This is a man whose life was saved by AD's and benzos. Literally!

You feel that your senses have been dulled by Remeron - who am I to dispute it? I am on Lexapro/Cipralex and have precisely the opposite experience. I suffer less anxiety, my wife tells me I am more fun to be around, I enjoy everything far more than before.

No one on this board advocates censorship. But your words are just a tad strong for people who know these drugs can be life saving

George

 

What the heck... I'll try this one.

No, I'm not depressed and I never have been. Of course I have not had the experiences that many of you have. No, I haven't...but my wife certainly has, and perhaps worse than most. One thing that occurred to me during a vertigo episode a few months back was that, although I was certainly uncomfortable I was in no pain. Although I was pretty well incapacitated, I was still perfectly lucid (well, for me). I could think. I could reason. I could listen to the radio. I could feel. I could talk on the phone. I could carry on business to a certain degree, certainly not to the degree that I liked, but to a degree. On the other hand, when my wife has an episode, she is in exquisite pain, pain to the degree that discomfort is welcomed; discomfort takes the mind off the pain.

I have learned many things from living with someone who at times lives with more pain than most humans can understand. One of those things is my role to that person. Although I will admit that there have been a few times when even I found myself in tears over her pain, I learned early on that living with the pain myself should not be my role. My role is to be positive when she cannot be; to be lucid when the pain takes over; to be comforting when she is anything but comfortable; and just as much, to be diligent to search for a cure for her problem because she is not able to. And in looking for her cure, I found one for myself. There is a lessen there somewhere. Pain can be all consuming. Pain can shrivel a human into a ball. But if others, perhaps spouses, perhaps friends or life partners, can be positive when there is seemingly no reason, that can lift the spirits of the one who is afflicted. To be sure, those afflicted with Meneire's, TN, Parkinson's, etc. need positivity in their lives that perhaps cannot be generated from within. That is my role to my wife, to be positive when she is not able. There are a lot of heroes here on this forum. My wife is my hero because even after everything she has been through, she can still "out positive" me. Still, she needs me to feed off of.

This forum is a wonderful way for us to remain positive, to raise each other's spirits. Although we may be afflicted ourselves, we can be that friend to the one who is afflicted. We can lift the spirits of others. We can work toward understanding the causes of the afflictions. But it does take work, thinking, pondering, reasoning...and those things we can do even when the world seems to spin 'round and 'round. Just close your eyes and think.

Friends, all just good friends.

Hank

 

No offense, but I'm not going to talk about pixies, and fairies when im explaining my own personal experience. It's my experience, not yours. I'll describe it how I see fit. If people take offense to it, I'm not sorry, because quite frankly, I've done nothing wrong. I talk & describe colourfully. It’s me. It’s who I am.

“Wonder drug” Vs “Chemical Filth” ….One mans trash is another mans treasure.

I’ve tried a couple. Chemical filth is an apt description for those too.

Sounds like he had severe clinical depression. I wonder how many of the millions worldwide that take these drugs every day have the same diagnosis. Severe clinical depression is extremely serious. As is forming a life long dependency on drugs that you may not need. Just as a VNS isn’t first point of action for Meniere’s, I believe AD’s shouldn’t be 1st point of action for depression. It’s my opinion. o-p-i-n-i-o-n

I don’t believe my words were too strong at all. I wasn’t abusing anyone, nor were my comments directed at anyone. I was describing MY experience and the way these drugs make ME feel.

____________________________

Nice post Hank.

 

I wish you could have found something that worked for you without side effects. I am so fortunate that my AD works well for me. I may go off it, I may not. Thats for the psychiatrist who treats me and myself to decide.
Wanting to not be here is not pixies and fairies. Thats what my AD helped me recover from. I was hesitant to take it but am glad I did. I have treated more junkies and drug seekers than I can count. I and many other people who suffer severe clinical depression are who the ADS were made for. You must have thought something of them to try them yourself. I'm sorry they did not work for you and hope that your alternative works as well.

 

Annegina, you're putting words in my mouth by saying "Wanting to not be here is not pixies and fairies. " ......Never once have I even slightly indicated that. My pixies and fairies comment was in reference to the fact that I won't "tone down" my descriptive language of the things I have been through.

Just for the record ....I just want to clear this up before anyone else has a go at me.

The thread is titled "depression and meniere's" ......I have/had both

In the past 5 years i have

*Spent thousands ....yes thousands. On psychiatrists on and psychologists.
*3 psychiatrists, and 4 psychologists.
* I have taken a plethora of drugs
- Regular Ativan (benzo)
- Effexor (AD)
- Avanza(remeron) (AD)
- Seroquel - Powerful anti-psychotic
- Zyprexa - Powerful anti-psychotic
- Read countless books on anxiety disorder

I'm not some lacky who is throwing off one liner cliches with no real life experience to back them up.

Two things I have come to realize after all this

1. Endorphins released through exercise is EXCELLENT therapy. Better than any drug I've tried. Best results are achieved by exercising 20-30mins with heart rate above 140bpm. This will vary depending on your target heart zone.

2. IMO The only way people will EVER deal with depression and anxiety related to meniere's is this.

.....Willingness

...........Willingness to feel the things we feel. Willingness to let the vertigo take control. Willingness to have bad thoughts. Willingness to feel the anxiety

In the outside world we solve problems through thought process and action. When have problems on the inside, we try and solve them the same way. Unfortunately this doesn't work. We have to be willing to feel the things and sensations we feel, and accept them for what they are, because unfortunately, suffering and anxiety is part of what it is to be human. It's when we fear these thoughts, and try and fight them that things can spiral.

There's clean distress and dirty distress. Vertigo is a clean distress ie something we can't do much about. Worrying about the vertigo and all the consequences involved is dirty distress. If we aren't willing to accept things, it will only add dirty distress to the problem.

And IMO .....This is all possible without drugs. Very possible.

 

My psychologist recommended works by a man named Jon Kabat-Zinn that is a mindfullness meditation. He said it has proved very helpful for people with chronic pain/illness to live in the moment only, not in the past or present, be-cause thats all we really have and to worry about the future is pointless because we dont know what that is and the past is past and we cant relive it.
That sounds like your theory on distress. Thats sort of oversimplifying it--his writing is very heady, but its quite accurate and worth looking in to more, I think.
I think its great that you're doing it all without drugs. You are a young man with a long life ahead of you--its great to find out what works for you early!
Especially something that promotes cardiovascular fitness--I do a lot of cardiac nursing and that can only be a good thing.

 

We'll agree on that! I can absolutely assure you that in my 53 years on this planet I've been in mental states when no amount of exercise, no amount of endorphins, no amount of therapy or positive thinking would have helped one iota. Chemical filth worked great and I'm a believer.

George

 

Hi again annegina

Interesting you mention that because mindfulness meditation is something that i've practiced and looked into. One of the psychologists I went to was a specific mindfulness psychologist. He was an ex-monk, and an extremely wise guy.

I must say though ....Mindfulness alone isn't what "awakened" me. I've been seeing another psychologist lately who practices "acceptance and commitment therapy". It's the "new age" research based talk therapy. It combines science based lingual theory, with an emphasis on mindfulness. That distress theory was an extremely simplified and small portion of the program. Cognitive therapy has massive limitations in my opinion. I know this because I tried it for 3 years with very little change. A.C.T. makes a lot more sense to me.

Anyway ...take it easy. Hope you're all well.

 

That would be me as well. "Chemical filth" worked for me when nothing else did. We're all different. Each of us must find what works for us as individuals and let others do the same. It isn't a one-size-fits-all world.

 

Cognitive therapy (as pioneered by Aaron Beck) is an excellent tool. Many scientific papers and studies prove it's superior to any form of psycho-dynamic therapy. It is by no means perfect - no single therapy is - but neither does it have *massive limitations* because it didn't work for you. Once again, I am not confronting your opinions, only the way you choose to express them. Since research shows that CT does not have *massive limitations*, all you can really say is: "Hey, it didn't work for me but may well work for you"

And yes, I know, you like to express your opinions forcefully, no problem! I like to voice mine, as well.

George

 

Hi George-
I actually wore out a copy of "Feeling Good" by David Burns and now have bought a new one. The way he describes errors in thinking is spot on for me-
I catch myself doing it all the time. I am the worlds best (or worst LOL).
"fortune teller"--last fall I had myself committed ,and with tinnitus that would be unrelenting and totally deaf.
Here I sit, in remission, hearings better and thanks to my therapist and my Lexapro, looking forward to spring. How I tortured myself "telling my fortune"
My other thinking error is Disqualifying the positive.
All during my worst time I still would get out of bed and carry on. I even worked and did OK. I gave myself credit for that and for reaching out for therapy and help--there are a lot of positives.
When I first discovered Cognitive Therapy I was 26. I learned the techniques and kind of do them in my head. So much of our anguish is created by our own thoughts. Pardonme brought a lot of this up in her Fear thread,also when she talks about climbing the ladder one rung at a time out of a funk.
Learning to cope with something chronic can give you tools to cope with all other aspects of life. Dang! I think I'll hunt up my copy of "Feeling Good"!!

Carol

 

Yes, Carol - that book has a prominent place on my bookshelf as well. Another really good one is "Mind Over Mood" (http://tinyurl.com/2rnp9z)

Our worst case scenarios have a wonderful way of not coming true (thank God!) but they sure cause a lot of misery. I guess some minds (ours!) are extraordinarily susceptible to negative self-talk. Other people are better able to dismiss it.

George

 

I like your discussion, George, Isis.....and all! I agree strongly that what works for one doesn't work for another. When I got to my very horrible depression, no amount of exercise would help me. And I tried it very hard. I really thought I could will myself out of it. I also am very happily married, and have overall a wonderful life. That's why I am pretty sure that what I was struggling with was a chemical imbalance. If you are having suicidal thoughts, I think it can be a danger to dismiss what someone is feeling and suggest exercise and hard work can fix it. (Not that exercise can't help big time over the long term). And for some it may be a fix. But for some of us it's just not enough. For me, at one critical point in my life, it wasn't. For me, even though I didn't stay on the drugs long term, knowing that help was there to try was a godsend. I just knew I did not have what I needed inside that time to pull me back from the edge. I think this has been very valuable thread for all of us to see the varying alternatives that have worked for us. Lisa

 

You'll notice I said cognitive therapy has massive limitations "IMO". Not cognitive therapy has massive limitations full stop. I never professed it to be fact, like you seem to think I did.

Acceptance and commitment therapy is based on the relational frame theory. A comprehensive language based theory, where every thought relates to something. It's the way we learn. We learn that the word "hot" could equal "pain", we learn that the word apple relates to a small round object etc

I base my opinion on that cognitive therapy tries to control thoughts. But the relational frame theory shows that it is almost impossible. "Calm down, breathe slowly, its not dangerous ....i dont want to be anxious". Relational frame theory shows that is difficult to achieve, due to the relational frames of "I dont want" and "anxious"

If you dont want something, you'll have it. "I don't want to feel pain" ......if you keep telling yourself of the pain, it will continue to bother you. However if you're willing to feel the pain, your mind won't be so consumed by it. Willingness won't necessarily make the pain go away, but it will stop it taking over your entire thought process

I dont think cognitive therapy is useless or not good, or any of that. It has helped A LOT of people but it has limitations. Why do so many people go back to their therapists again, again, again, and again. If it was so bulletproof, depression and anxiety wouldn't be seen in such epidemic proportions. Science is starting to prove the way we think and learn, so it's only inevitable that modern theories will start to slightly debunk certain aspects of cognitive therapy. The very same way that cognitive therapy surpassed Freudian thinking. Cognitive therapy was developed in the 60's, It is now 2007 ...evolution is inevitable in just about everything.

Here is a recent study on ACT and Epilepsy ...Epilepsy is very close to meniere's IMO, in terms of impact it can have on someones life.

pubmed: Evaluation of acceptance and commitment therapy for drug refractory epilepsy: a randomized controlled trial in South Africa--a pilot study.

I dont want to shove this down anyones throat ...do a google on it and read more about it if you like. As a fellow menierian, the concept has helped me a great deal. And that's all that matters.

 

I don't think anyone would ever suggest that. And it certainly isn't something that I was eluding to. Suicidal depression is a different kettle of fish, and requires urgent action. Going for a run certainly won't fix it. I do believe that it could help them become well over time though .....after initial medical intervention that is

 

I totally agree. In fact, this is one of the behavioral approaches to OCD: tell yourself to obsess, or *don't forget to obsess*. Not only does it take the sting out of the painful/obsessive thought, it adds a touch of humour, too. That can never hurt, eh? And yes, this works with anxiety also - up to a point.

Btw, I mentioned this on a different thread: I recently saw an interview with Dr. Andrew Weil. He spoke at length - and very eloquently - about the importance of breathing as a bridge between our physical and mental/spiritual worlds. The importance of slow, deep, mindful breathing can't be overstated.

George