Women priests

INS, I shared many of the same disenchantments that you did. But I came to realize that the organized church's emphasis on structure, rituals, and segregation of roles and duties and the elevation of priests and ministers, is all of man. Now realize, however, that if, say, a man or a woman, is going to take on the mantle in life of preaching the Gospel, and say he or she is successful in doing so, and in so doing he or she develops a following, then what he or she has done is make him or her self the shepherd to sheep. And just like in business, when one is successful one must succombe to a certain organized architecture or one's efforts will fail. If it does not find an efficient mode in which to operate, then the sheep do not get tended and they become lost sheep. (The metaphore can go and go.)

A failing in the organized church is when the organization begins to rival its own purpose. When it becomes more about the organization rather than the organization's purpose, that is when good folks like yourself, or me when I was younger, discover disenchantment. Following disenchantment comes rebellion. So church, as an organization, is a double edged sword. I expect that any organized church that preaches that its is the only way, the pure way of God, is a church liable to lose favor with God. The church should instead preach that it endeavors to be the way of God and that it prays for God's hand in that endeavor. That same church should be its own ombudsman. The role of the ombudsman should be one that is richly received by the clergy, and the flock, but (ha ha), it is not. I believe that your thesis is right that people naturally congregate within a church organization they feel personally comfortable. So they do not want to hear anything that conflicts with the sense of comfort that brought them to the church to begin with. But unless someone within the church takes on the role of the 'skeptic,' as you say, then the church is never introspective of its own bad habits and it takes the chance that bad habits will outrun the good habits.

And the scriptures bear all this out. In the Revelation, Jesus Christ, through His servant John, offers a critique of seven churches established in Asia to promote the will of God. According to John, these churches are filling that goal with varying degrees of success, and high degrees of failure. Now these were all first century church organizations, no doubt most established by the Apostle Paul himself, who even with the authority of their establishment given to them through Paul, they were failing at their mission.

Now the church, as an organization, has morphed into the entire array of forms you see it today. Some churches even attempt to get back to the idea of the first century church. But even that idea falls flat because there is no one assigned the role of skeptic, of ombudsman, to raise issues of compliance with the will of God in the scriptures. If one was assigned that role, I expect he or she would find themselves at odds, become ostricized and drummed out of the church. But all that is of man, not of God.

So on a personal level, each of us, meaning Christians, both man and woman alike, is his or her own church. Each of us is given the same scriptures, or access to them. And we are all given the same responsibility, jointly and severally, as any bohemoth church organization you might consider. We are all commisioned as were the 11 remaining apostles:

Matthew 28:16-20 (New American Standard Version)

16But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.

17When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Now THIS, I believe, is largely what drives non-believers nuts. According to this, what is termed, 'The Great Commision,' each Christian is practically assigned his or her own church. It is every believer's responsibility to 'make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe all that Jesus commanded.' So Christians have to do this. This is one of those commandments of Jesus Christ He told the apostles to observe. That's what I read in this, so that just seems the way it is. And that is why much the rub between believers and non-believers. Non-believers do not recognize any authority conveyed from Jesus Christ to the members of His church. So when those members use that authority it is easily disrespected and left unaccepted. Well, that's too bad I guess, because to be Christians, Christians must do this.

But Jesus also gave his apostles the authority to leave a house that is unrespecting to the Gospel. He told his apostles to bring their peace into any house they walk into. But if that peace is not received, take that peace back, kick the dirt from their feet and go to the next house. I believe those scriptures are certainly in effect today. But I lessen their severity a bit, noting Jesus' intent. There were only 11 apostles at the time. They could only cover so much ground. They would come into contact with a certain number of folks in their lives. Jesus told them to not waste any precious time with folks who were obviously not receptive. Sometimes Christians, even today, exercise their discretion to leave unreceptive environments such as the one's Jesus spoke to. But fortunately for you, my good friend, and perhaps others here who might feel similarly as you, I personally suffer no anxiety in that regard. I have all the time God gives me here. So you don't have to worry about me shaking any dirt from my feet. I wash them every day and am ready for the next! So don't you be concerned, anytime you want a healthy dose of what the scriptures might have to tell you, and you want my opinion, I'll be more than glad to give it to you!

 

Isn't this what you do? What organized structure do you represent?

 

I'm not sure I understand your question. As far as I can see, I am an organization of one.

 

Believe me Henry, I am in NO DOUBT that you are only too williing and able to shower me with Scripture whether I want it or not LOL.

As for the prosletysing. Well, it doesn't personally drive me nuts as I am fortunate not to encounter it too often and when I do I politely decline. I actually understand the motivtion behind it - you guys want to share the Good News. But for me, well, I have heard the Good News and it didn't speak to me. I do have some gripes with organised religion but I agree with you, these are of humankind, rather than God's creating. So it would be true to say I 'rejected' the church. Or any church or religion really. As for 'belief'. That was never a choice. There was no 'denial'. It never really spoke to me and from a very early age I kinda knew it didn't ring true for me. I stuck with church and scripture classes etc for a while during high school to please my mother and for social reasons but it was really a sham. And I still feel that way.

As for prosletysing in general. Well, I'm against it. It's OK to offer to share the news but once it's politely declined, move on. If not, then it becomes rude. And then on a large scale you get things like the Crusades and fatwahs and it all gets very violent and very ugly. I can't see how God or Allah or any of the other Gods would be cool with that.

 

I see no difference between me telling you what I believe, and you telling me what you believe, and I do not see that as proselytizing. How many times have I declined what you preach? But that does not have to be the end of the conversation. I do not force you to read, nor you me. Now I do not come knocking at your door. So perhaps that is a difference. But more than once have Christians been accused of proselytizing here on the forum. Hey, we're just talking. And when we talk, this is what we say.

 

Hank,

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about prosletysing from you, specifically, but in general as per your previous post suggesting that proseltysing drives the non believers nuts.

 

Finally we have something in common. I knew there must be something.

 

June-: Quote from: Henrysullivan on Today at 07:41:32 amAs far as I can see, I am an organization of one.
"Finally we have something in common. I knew there must be something."

Hey, maybe we ought to start our own church! Of course, I get to be the preacher 'cause I'm a man. .

 

That would be one hell of a church!

 

Don't you believe we have a 'church' of sorts right here within this forum? I mean it is large and varied in it's beliefs and it always questions itself about the truth (or scriptures) of God/Allah/all the rest.

I've always thought I sat on the fence because I didn't belong to any 'orginized' church. I now believe I'm not sitting on a fence. I do believe in a higher power and it is inside me at all times. I don't have to call 'it' anything. It sings to me of right and wrong. I thank it for the smallest of things (like hitting all the green lights). I don't need a 'deity' in command of my life to get me through my days (please do not take offense, I don't know another way to say it). I know that I'll find out the truth when I go through this plane of existance - if there is more. Don't feel sorry for me or damn me to hell for my beliefs. They're the beliefs of a simple person who just trys to do the right thing as I know it to be - it just happens to, mostly, coexist with what many churches teach.

Hey Hank, have you ever thought about being a teacher in an organized group? You can sermon with the best of 'em ;D

 

Or might these two things be one and the same?

 

What makes you assume it is a deity at work rather than your willingness to go deeper within yourself and extrapolate that which you perhaps kept shut down for a long time?

I don't think I understand your question. I said I didn't need a deity to get me through my days. I thought I was saying that I don't need to call what I feel anything and I don't need to follow a doctrine to believe in myself as a spiritual person. Well, I guess that is more than I said. If you could rephrase or expound I might have a clearer idea in mind of what you ask.

I've read a lot on this web site. Right in this forum. The talk and even the arguemnts have caused me to dwell on what I truly believe and what, if any one thing or name is attached to what I believe. I've also read some of the things that people have pointed out (to read) and in general, because I don't have formal classes or schooling, surfed through my computer to find information. It's wonderful how much you can learn just from very intelligent people, who happen to be associated with MM in some manner, talk about their lives and themselves so openly.

In this past year + I've been able to delve with a more conscious mind into my own belief system to figure out more clearly where I belong in the scheme of things just to find out I've actually been there this whole time! I think this coincides with the questions you asked in your entry. I think your questions are spot on where I've been and what has happened to me.

About the deity thing, the only real answer is that I believe that deity - if that's what we want to call it - is me. I do not want this to be meant that I think of myself as a Christian God or any God. That's for others to believe. I am responsible for the things I do, both good and bad, right here in my own life - and I have both recieved and paid some of the cost for it. Hopefully this has, in some wway, answered your question/s.

Long winded I know but I tend to read all of Hank's entries and I think It's rubbing off ;D :-*

 

Yeppers :-*