Women priests

Discussion in 'Your Religion & Spiritual Corner' started by Imnoscientist, Oct 26, 2010.

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  1. Chris0515

    Chris0515 New Member

    I love the cultural stuff that Jordan brings here as well!
     
  2. Jazza

    Jazza Saved by Grace Thru Christ Jesus

    I just want to answer the statement you placed here that I highlighted in bold.

    I'm sure you genuinely may not see whole explosive and controversial this topic is.

    Your question is often asked as you have at Christian Forums that I am a member.

    We do have non-Christians there by the way so all the participants are not of the same view.

    The problem is this often descends to a Feminist fight of women against men issues rather than people calmly discussing the topic itself.

    That is human nature. Every body wants to be TOP DOG. Many are offended that women cannot get the Top Job in some organisations.

    I have constantly seen this topic descend to arguement and debate without anybody seeing the other persons view.

    For the very reason above I don't bother to explain what the Bible teaches on this topic. Most people don't like and there are often even those who are Christians who won't accept it even though I have copious scriptures to use to show why it is as it is.

    Without a very good understanding of God and His Word you cannot grasp the reasons why.

    I will say one thing. Being a Minister or Priest is not a job it is a priviledge to have that position before God and it isn't just someone's right to hold the position it is appointed divinely.
     
  3. Jazza

    Jazza Saved by Grace Thru Christ Jesus

    Hank that verse has nothing to do with why women are not Ministers.

    That verse is where Paul was putting some loud mouthed women (at the time in that Church) who were disrupting Teaching by calling out to their husbands from the womens section across to the mens section so that others could not follow what was being siad by the teacher. Women didn't sit beside their men and whisper the question softly. They segregated the women and men in Church back then basing it on what the Jews did in Temple. Later of course we see this change where men and women sit together. Some Eastern Orthodox Churches still folow this model of separating men and women during formal Church services. Not adhereed to strictly at weddings or Christenings or funerals.

    Paul was addressing a specific problem here when he wrote that women should not speak in Church. What does the scripture tell us? That women are to go home and ask their husbands. Of course if the husband is a mature believer and able to dicsuss the sermon with their wives.

    Today there are so many ways you can learn more. You can get the sermon often on tape/CD to listen to again in your own time. We have the written Bible that gives us the ability of studying the scripture for ourselves and of course there are lots of commentaries out there if you want to go that far. I have a Study Bible with notes which I find very helpful.

    Yes Hank you are correct in saying that you need to interpret the Bible correctly. Much comes into it like understanding the time that the Apostles wrote in, the history and culture of the people at that time as well as what is written. If you can go back to the original texts such as Ancient Greek you can often get deeper insight into the meaning.

    There are many other scriptures that provided the basis for the teaching of women not being Ministers or Priests. The scripture you used is unfortunately trotted out too often solely as the only scripture.
     
  4. Titus

    Titus New Member

    The churches I attend have either ordained women ministers (Methodist) or women pastors (non-denominational.)
     
  5. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Sex does not exist in God's Kingdom. So sexism is not a part of God's vocabulary.

    God did not create men and women as equals. He created man in His image. He made woman from man, which, joined together, complete the whole. Together they complete the image of God. Without either, the other does not complete that image.
     
  6. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Regarding Paul's letter to the Corinthians, I think you make much the same point I do. But I can take you to churches that use this scripture to support the contention that women should not be Christian ministers.

    Other than the Old Testament and Paul's letter to the Corinthians, I do not know where we would find any indication that women should not preach. Can you help me there?
     
  7. Tara

    Tara New Member

    I was raised in the United church, and there are a number of female ministers. :)
     
  8. barnyardbird

    barnyardbird Guest

    In reform Judaism,there are women rabbi's,but I don't know if there are women cantors.Richard Tucker and Robert Merrill were opera baritones as well as cantors.In orthodox Judaism men and women sit separately in the synagogue,Reform Judaism men and women sit together in the synagogue.
     
  9. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    Ok, so from what I've read so far it seems that the various Christian denominations approach this issue differently. So that seems to gel with what Hank is saying that there is an element of interpretation involved. Some denominations are satisfied that the Biblical evidence stacks up in favour of women preachers, others not.

    So, to me, this isn't 'explosive' at all. It just confirms that everyone is different and that people of like mind will commune together. No great surprise there! And, as religion is not imposed on us but is a choice, then those who feel that women aren't meant to be preachers will follow a denomination which also holds that view - much like the parish in the United Kingdom.
     
  10. leviticus

    leviticus Jonah's whale

    I believe every Christian has a specific calling from God for the Ministry, so I let God guide me in who I listen to. As far as women go, or anyone for that matter, you can't get much better than Beth Moore,, so I would listen to her anyday because I know she is doing what God has called her to do and I feel in my Spirit that she is right on.. I don't choose who I listen to based on gender, If you are saved then the Holy Spirit will show you who has the message that you need to hear..
     
  11. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    INS, the way that it ought to work, is that the truth of the scriptures win out, and the various modes of thinking coelesce into one.

    But this is VERY difficult. And I will tell you why that is.

    God did not reveal the scriptures in a perfectly straight forward manner. Had He done that, the book would never have lasted as it has. Crypticism keeps people trying to understand more. Even though the answers are all there, they must be pieced together.

    Think about the aspect of anointing. That is discussed from Genesis all the way through the New Testament. It is discussed by any number of authors, during the course of several thousand years.

    So for us today to begin to define what it is, we have to settle on a definition that satisfies every use of the term. And that is just one Biblical term, one aspect of the Bible.

    So you see, with that much to consider, that explains why different folks have various ideas as to what the scriptures mean.

    And here is another VERY important aspect to intepreting the scriptures. That is our own personal experiences. The scriptures are written to be intepreted according to our own personal experiences. Take the aspect of healing by faith. If someone, even a Christian, has no life experience that demonstrates that healing by faith is still for today, then that person, in all earnest, is going to intepret the scriptures in such a fashion that yields the principle that miracles are no longer for today and were only for Biblical days. He or she will look for possoble implications that support that conclusion.

    But those who do experience these things, such as miracle healings, signs and wonders, will read the same cryptic scriptures and come away with different interpretations than the first guy. So to find the real truth, one's life experiences reflected back into the scriptures are a vital tool available for us to use.

    But reflecting our life experiences is only viable if we subject ourselves to those conditions that are likely to bring about miraculous results, if we are truly to know if miracles are for today.

    One CANNOT read the scriptures in a vacuum and come out with an undeniably correct interpretation.

    But although God cannot be tested, the scriptures can. The scriptures can be applied into one's life, and results reflected back into the scriptures. By that method, the truth ultimately emerges. Whether they realize it or not, that is what all Christians do. And the folks who have similar experiences, and reflect those experiences into the scriptures, will come up with similar truths.

    So it is not necessarily that folks who of a like mind feed their truth into the scriptures and come out interpreting them as they please, it is that folks of similar EXPERIENCES, not mind sets, reflect those experiences into the scriptures and in good faith interpret those scriptures in the light of those experiences.
     
  12. Jazza

    Jazza Saved by Grace Thru Christ Jesus

    Hank

    I agree with the highlighted in bold.

    Women being a minster and women teaching or preaching are two separate things.

    Remember being a minister/priest is more than just being a teacher of God's Word. It has to do with Divine order and headship.

    Women were not told they could not teach at all. They were actually told they couldn't have authority over men.

    I have given you hopefully what you need to work through this.

    I apologise for being short. In lots of pain at the moment. Until I get to my speicalist tomorrow and have some invasive tests and some minor surgery I am not in a place to be able to concentrate or manage long answers to these kinds of questions which will take me time digging through the Bible to find the scriptures etc.. required to do this topic justice.

    I know you can work through this with what I have given you Hank you are very capable.

    Cheers from me
    Jazz Girl
     
  13. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    God be with you at your doctor's appointment, Jazzgirl. I pray you feel better immediately. Come back when you can.
     
  14. Titus

    Titus New Member


    AMEN
     
  15. June-

    June- New Member

    In the church in which I was raised, beliefs about these kinds of issues changed many times over the years. The congregation dates to the late 1700's. In the memory of people I knew, there was a time when if someone saw you doing something 'unChristian' whatever that meant at that time, you didn't get your communion token for next time. I don't think they would have many members now if that practice was still followed.

    Also during the same time period, the Quakers - another group with which my family was affiliated - went from banning those who married outside the faith to one of the most open congregations. They did always I believe welcome women leaders.

    But both of these congregations changed with the times and reflected the culture in which they existed at any given time. (Well, the Quakers were thought odd by some even then, actually more in the past than now). The only one I know that appears not to have changed much is the Amish community. I suspect it too has changed, but it appears to us English as lost in time and not to have changed.

    None of the faiths to which I have been associated gave any special power to priests/ministers so it wasn't a great theological question. It wasn't a question at all as far as I remember.
     
  16. carolyn33

    carolyn33 New Member

    I didn't read all of this bc some of it's just too long after being on a computer all day at work. Female Priests, I don't believe there ever will be. Those would be our nuns who wear a wedding band on their left ring finger bc they have given up their lives to serve the Lord.
     
  17. Jazza

    Jazza Saved by Grace Thru Christ Jesus

    Hank

    This scripture came to me last night and I thought I might share it with you. I thought you would find this interesting.

    Here is a situation where some have decided they want to get the good places in Heaven so they go about trying to set themselves up for it by talking to Jesus.

    Note what Jesus replies to them. Two things:-

    First Jesus points out that not even HE has any say on who will sit in these positions in Heaven.

    The Second is that GOD the Father is the one who will appoint those who will sit in these places.


    This is how it works with God in all things. The Lord has a Divine order here on Earth and He also makes the decisions who can be what or who can fulfil the roles within His Church here on Earth.

    We try to demand and command and manipulate ourselves calling it our right to get into various Church roles. God has ordered who He will find acceptable and who He will not accept. Every person that does not fit into the Position Description is not acceptable.

    God clearly sets out who is acceptable to Him as Priest or Minister both to the Jews and to the Christian Church. All others who set themselves up in the role are ursurping the position without God's approval. Yes we can say there are many women who are Ministers, Pastors or even Bishops and I am sure these women think they are serving God.


    It is not for us to say to God accept this sacrifice or that sacrifice from our hands. God clearly specified what types of sacrifices and what condition they must be in for God to receive them. This is made clear in Leviticus. The same applies to scarifice of service to God.

    Of course I know you already agree with this Hank I just thought this scripture and what is teaches us would be of interest to you.

    Must be off got to get going to the doctors now.
     
  18. buschiabo

    buschiabo New Member

    Jordan, Like most "Christians", I know next to nothing about Islam. Your posting was very informative and I thank you. I am a Roman Catholic and as such don't always agree with what "the church" teaches. I do not understand why women can't be priests or why priests cannot marry. I have discussed this at length with nun and priests both but until the Holy Father, spiritual leader of the church, changes things they will remain the same. Donna
     
  19. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Thanks, Jazzgirl! I think that there are layers of meaning in the passages of the Bible. I think that is one reason that it is difficult for every Christian to settle on one accepted interpretation of these scriptures. I really like the scripture you brought in to discuss, Jazzgirl. Let me paste it here for reference:

    MT 20
    20hen the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, bowing down and making a request of Him.

    21And He said to her, "What do you wish?" She said to Him, "Command that in Your kingdom these two sons of mine may sit one on Your right and one on Your left."

    22But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to Him, "We are able."

    23He said to them, "My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father."

    24And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers.

    25But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.

    26"It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,

    27and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;

    28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."


    I think a key verse is the one I emboldened. Now I do not discredit your interpretation, not at all. But I offer additional interpretation, another layer so to speak, for your consideration, one I believe is viable as well. Yes, God established the throne of Jesus to sit on His right hand. He did that because Jesus, the sinless man, took on the sin of the world, took it out of the world as John the Baptist announced that He would, and therefore Jesus sits at the Father's right side in the Kingdom of God. As you say, Jesus did not and has not the authority to dole out seats in Heaven. The Father does and the Father has already established Jesus sitting to his right, which of course means that God sits to Jesus' left, which means that Jesus could not possibly promise that seat to either of the sons of Zebedee. ANd Jesus says that whatever seats that are available will be assigned in reverse order, the last will be first, etc. Since Jesus placed Himself last among all, a sinless man paying the price for the sin of the entire world, He has the first seat. Others who serve mankind will be given seats in the order of their service. That is what I get from this.

    But let's go back to verse 22:

    22But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to Him, "We are able."

    The sons of Zebedee say that they are able to drink the cup Jesus was about to drink, but were they really? What cup was Jesus about to drink? Clearly, there is something about that cup, equating that cup with the seating arrangement in Heaven, that Jesus told the mother that she did not understand. If she did not understand, then her sons would not understand and their answer to Jesus would therefore be incorrect. Something about drinking this cup is key to understanding the seating arrangement in Heaven. Soon thereafter, the cup that Jesus was about to drink, we discover is the cup that would be handed to Him in the Garden of Gethsemane.

    Luke 22:40–53
    40 On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.


    So whatever was in the cup, only Jesus could drink. And by doing so, Jesus earned His seat at the right hand of the Father. Could the son's of Zebedee drink the cup that Jesus was about to drink? Jesus told them that they did not even understand the question. They did not understand it because no one could drink that cup except the sinless Christ. Because in that cup, I believe, was the sin of the world. Could they drink the cup? When they asked to sit next to Jesus, according to Jesus, they did not know what they were even asking. So no, they could not drink that cup because they had sin on them. Only the sinless Christ could do take that cup.

    Yet Jesus continues, saying, "My cup you shall drink." So we have two different cups here, the cup that Jesus will drink, and the cup Jesus will give the sons of Zebedee, and others. They may drink from that cup, but not the one that Jesus was about to drink. As Jesus told the woman from Samaria, out of any water cup of Jesus will come 'living waters.'

    John 4
    7There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give Me a drink."

    8For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.

    9Therefore the Samaritan woman said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?" (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)

    10Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

    11She said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?

    12"You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?"

    13Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;

    14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."


    Note that Jesus invokes the ignorance of the woman speaking here, just as He did to the other woman, the mother of the sons of Zebedee. He says, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." So when someone along Jesus' path in this world comes up to Him inquiring about water, just as in the case of the mother of the sons of Zebedee, Jesus's response is that clearly, "You do not know what you are asking." Because any water that Jesus would give to this person would be 'living' water, the gift of eternal life. And that is what Jesus could dispense from His cup after he took the cup containing the sin of the world, removing sin from the world, after which, all sin removed, all remaining would receive eternal life.

    According to Luke, shortly after consuming the contents of the cup given Him in the Garden, "his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground." I expect so. Because in that cup was first hand knowledge of the consequences of sin, all sin of all mankind. If any of us had first hand knowledge of all sin ever committed, and the consequences, that knowledge of horror would likely make our sweat fall like drops of blood to the ground. I expect that is what Jesus understood shortly after taking the cup in the Garden of Gethsemane.

    Moments later, the Roman guards came to get Jesus. They could not have arrested Him prior to taking the cup. For prior to taking the cup, there was no sin about Him. Only after voluntarily 'taking on' the sin of the world, a sinless man, could he then be arrested and punished. This is not to say that Jesus became sinful, only that He carried the sin of the world. It is sin that is punished, not the sinner. Whoever is in possession of sin receives punishment. Jesus possessed the sin of the world and therefore could received the punishment for it once and for all.

    Now in the days following the crucifixion and burial, it is written that Jesus decended to Hades, the holding place of the dead. It is written that he preached to those inhabiting that place. It is also written that Jesus was given the keys to death and Hades and that the righteous dead would be released from Hades, meeting Jesus in the clouds, and the wicked dead would remain, locked in by the keys that Jesus holds, where in the end times death and Hades would ultimately be cast into the Lake of Fire. Personally, I expect that in the three days that followed His burial, on His visit to Hades, Jesus either literally, figuratively, or symbolically, dropped the sin of the world off, as one might even drop off a package, and placed it among the wicked dead, taken away from the world, thus fulfilling the prophesy of John the Baptist as he introduced Jesus as the Messiah, from which place, ultimately, sin would be cast into the Lake of Fire. That way, all sin will be destroyed and all that will remain will be in the Kingdom of God.

    As I said, I believe there are layers upon layers of meaning in the scriptures. And some of this is spiritual, or figurative, or symbolic. And they are written cryptically enough that good people, seeking truth, can understand various layers and all be correct. There is certainly room for incorrect interpretation as well. But to prevent that, we all have the gift of the Holy Spirit to ask for guidance.

    Thanks for bringing these verses to our attention!
     
  20. Jazza

    Jazza Saved by Grace Thru Christ Jesus

    Hank

    A section of scripture teaches us many things. I just pointed out the fact in that discussion Jesus also pointed out He wasn't the one that appointed these positions. God is the one who appoints positions.

    I thought this point was relevant to the thread.

    Yes Hank there is much more in these verses than what I highlighted.
     

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