Women priests

Discussion in 'Your Religion & Spiritual Corner' started by Imnoscientist, Oct 26, 2010.

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  1. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    In one of the other threads a question was asked about man being created in God's image and what that meant for women. It got me thinking about the role of women in religion. To my knowledge most religions don't have women as preachers/priests/imams etc.

    I'm curious as to whether this is prescribed within holy texts or is a matter of doctrine/tradition only. I'm also curious as to how followers of religion feel about this.

    It appears that for some people, they feel strongly enough about it (against the ordination of women) that they will convert. See for example -

    http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/299038
     
  2. June-

    June- New Member

    I think there have been a number of matriarchal societies throughout history. You must be just thinking of recent western european societies.
     
  3. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    I agree June, there have been but patriachies seem more common. And certainly in the religions of the Abrahamic tradition, which is what I'm thinking about here.
     
  4. June-

    June- New Member

    Because they follow the tradition of the societies in which the religion was born and is practiced. Duh.

    Are you just trying to start another fight and get people upset with one another again?
     
  5. Wino

    Wino Resident Honey Badger

    I think it's mostly because chicks are dumb.

    [heads running for the nearest exit as fast as possible while covering his head to protect himself from projectiles]
     
  6. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    June,

    I'm not trying to start a fight. I genuinely fail to see how asking this question could/should/would lead to a fight. Or why the question would upset anyone.

    And I don't think it's as simple as saying it's about traditions of the society from when the religion came. Christianity started in the middle east 2000 years ago. The United Kingdom for example in 2010 is a very different time and place. Sex based discrimination is not allowed outside of religions. But clearly a whole parish of Anglicans in the UK felt strongly enough that they did NOT want women ministers they converted to Catholicism. That's interesting. What's going on here - is it a cultural thing or is it actually a requirement of the religion?

    The Islamic world is culturally very different to the Christan world. They also don't have women imams. Again, I wonder why?

    I'm not making a judgement about it. I'm not religious. If religions don't want women priests that is their business. But it still interests me. I wonder when being interested in other people, with views different to mine came to be viewed as starting a fight. I've said it before - we don't have to agree with each other but if we can try and understand each other we're more likely to get along.
     
  7. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    Wino, you scallywag!
     
  8. June-

    June- New Member

  9. jim1884again

    jim1884again advocating baldness be recognized as a disability

    like so many other things, the times they are a changin'
    one of my favorite pastors is female, but she is methodist and they have had women in the ministry for a while
    one of my closest friends counts among his friends a young lady whose sister is an African American Episcopal priest--bet you won't find many of those around--the same priest began her secular training at age 16 at Johns Hopkins which pretty much suggests she is a genius--I do not know what called her to the ministry but my guess is she is good at it ( I think her sister told me she was good at everything she tried)
     
  10. Chris0515

    Chris0515 New Member

    A male or female priest, minister, or preacher; either one is fine with me because if someone has something good and uplifting to say It doesn't matter who's mouth it comes from.
     
  11. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    Chris, I think that's one of the most reasonable things you've ever posted! Or maybe that's because I agree with you so it seems completely reasonable to me! Which is why I just can't fathom why anyone else would care either - but a whole parish in the UK does - enough to switch denomination over it. Curious.
     
  12. Jordan

    Jordan New Member

    Speaking about Muslims, an imam's main function is to lead congregational prayers in the mosque. He is not necessarily a spiritual leader, and he is not holy or more important than other members of the congregation. Islam does not have a formal clergy, so there is no "ordainment" for imams although most are formally trained to undertake their duties. If our neighborhood's "regular" imam is absent for any reason, any other knowledgeable Muslim could lead prayers in his place. Typically, he would be chosen according to his ability to recite the Qur'an in proper Arabic. If several people meet that requirement, they might choose the eldest member of the community or use other criteria. They would also avoid choosing anyone who openly commits sin.

    If you have seen Muslims pray, you may know that there is a lot of bending, kneeling and prostrating, which results in certain parts of the body becoming more noticeable/prominent during prayer. It is considered inappropriate for men and women to pray side-by-side as this could be distracting for both. The prayer is such that Muslims stand shoulder-to-shoulder, which means that the sides of your body will be in contact with the two people standing next to you.

    Traditionally, women pray separately from men, and it would not be acceptable for a woman to prostrate in front of a male congregation. Women can, however, lead other women in prayer. They can also become scholars or preachers, both of which are very respected and important in Islam. In Jordan, we have a number of religious satellite channels featuring programs hosted by female scholars who transmit religious knowledge, answer questions from viewers, etc. There are also a number of female preachers who motivate people to live a cleaner, more Islamic life. In the mosque itself, we have female teachers who form study circles and educate female students.

    Another point regarding imams is that they must be in the mosque every day, five times a day, in order to lead prayers. Congregational prayers in the mosque are obligatory for men, but not for women.

    As a Muslim woman, I am fine with the fact that men and women pray separately at the mosque. The point of praying is to worship God and not to get distracted by the opposite gender. One thing I really enjoy is the feeling of sisterhood I have experienced at the mosque. I think this would not be the same if the two genders were to intermingle in that environment.
     
  13. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    Jordan,

    Thanks for taking the time to post this - it's really informative. And interesting. I know very little about Islam and, as we know, these days a lot of what we hear in the media is alarmist. So, thank you for posting your perspective/experience.
     
  14. jim1884again

    jim1884again advocating baldness be recognized as a disability

    As always Jordan, your posts are very informative
     
  15. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    The churches that I know of who subscribe to this teaching give it rise from scriptures that come from Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, Chapter 14:

    34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
    35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.


    There are many churches that subscribe to this view, that women should not preach. And I give respect to that view. I do not agree with that view and will give you my reasons, right or wrong. This is an excellent example of where scriptural interpretation comes in. The scriptures must always be put into their context. There are folks who will with good consciences put these scriptures into context and come out with differing opinions. Nevertheless, here is how I look at it:

    Here is the context. Paul had established a church organization in Corinth. After he left, the Corinthian church leaders wrote him a letter, within which they had a number of questions about how the church organization should be operated. WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT THOSE QUESTIONS WERE. But any answer that Paul gives is an answer to a specific question. It may have been that while the church leaders were trying to have a meaningful services, the Corinthian women, as women are proned to do even today, decided to get together and gab or gossip (that was a joke, everyone knows women do not gab or gossip today :D ) Their question to Paul could easily have been the following:

    "Our brother, bond servant of Christ, Paul, know that our womenfolk are not taking well to these services. Instead of demonstrating pious countenances and respect to the living God during services, they act as if these occasions are nothing more than the same as they might meet at the bazaar and haggle over the price of a lot of grain. We have asked them to bring peace into these services, however our efforts to do so are not being heeded. What should we do?"

    To that question, Paul could have easily written the answer depicted in verses 34 and 35 above. But I think it is key that Paul invoked the local laws and traditions in his expressions toward the role of women in these services. He says that they should behave in church "just as the Law also says." So the Corinthian laws, within which the character of the Corinthian traditions and mores were no doubt embodied, made their ways into the scriptures. That being the case, one should interpret these scriptures in that light. And because Paul brought the prevailing customs into the scriptures during that time, applying them correctly allows that the same be done even today. Today, in America, we have a whole different set of customs, traditions and mores. That being the case, those factors should have the same effect on church services today as there corresponding 1st century factors had back then.

    Now that is just the way that I look at it. I think you can imagine that reasonable people might differ on the meaning they pull from Paul's letter. That seems to be what is going on with the folks about whom the article you posted is written. This discussion has been going on a long time. Perhaps you better understand now why that is.

    Of premier importance in all of this is that Jesus never described the perfect church service. Jesus established the church as His body on earth. So the church as Jesus expressed it is not an organization. Church is in the heart of men and women who surrender to the Lord Jesus Christ, repent of sin, and pledge and strive to keep His commandments. In doing so, Jesus Christ promises that they enter His Kingdom.

    I hope that helps you to understand an answer to your earnest question.
     
  16. karenlr

    karenlr New Member

    We have our Pastor Susy, She is a wonder, you have to be to keep a church like ours going.
    The average age is 60 and up. We have very few weddings but lots of funerals. :(
     
  17. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    Hank,

    Thanks so much for that thoughtful reply - I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to post that. I'm inclined to agree with you - it seems a matter of interpretation/context. If that one verse is the only Biblical 'reason' to not have women preachers, well, it does seem pretty slim. And a misguided distraction. I hope you get what I mean here - I don't mean to be insulting. It seems more like a case of human interpretation/agenda getting in the way of the 'core' messages of Christianity.

    Karen - your church sounds nice. So does Susy :).
     
  18. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    And mine is a human interpretation as well. But maybe this is a good example of how it is that the scriptures give rise to so many denominations of thought.
     
  19. CarolineJ.

    CarolineJ. New Member

    Jordan, thanks so much for your input.

    I always wondered why the women had to pray separately and thought it was discriminatory but your explaination makes perfect sense.

    It is nice to hear that the women play other important roles in your faith too.
     
  20. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    See? We're learning stuff! And no-one's offended or arguing. :)
     

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