Why suicide might be the one unforgiveable sin.

Thank you Aladdin, you brought light onto what I was trying to communicate but rather badly.

If in Jesus Christ and you die, you aren't dead at all, and I believe some people have been visited by deceased loved ones that died in Christ Jesus.

But the warnings I have been given I do not take lightly. If God wants me to know, then I will know, if I never know then I have to learn to be at peace with that decision concerning Alan and his father.

I would never seek out a person claiming to have such a gift because to me it is what King Saul did. I don't want to make the same mistake.

There are still a lot of questions I have concerning this topic though. But I am letting it go.

 

What about the Pope and this scandal about all of the cover-ups of child molestation. Were was Jesus? Was he dead or sleeping?

What kind religion tolerated young children being abused by these perverted priests? Where is the religion? What right did these religious fakes have to do such things? And they hushed it up.

And don't get me started with the POPE during WWII with his friendly behavior with Hitler? Did the Jews deserve to die because they did not believe in Jesus? With mass graves and slaughter? Are they sleeping or DEAD. What about the medical experiments done without any pain killers. Your Pope did nothing during that atrocity done to Jews, Gypsies, mental cases, gays and anyone who looked strange.

And while I am on on it. More wars were fought over Jesus. Why?

I wonder is all of this foolishness stupid. The woman who ran that web site is a Christian and a Priest and a Rabbi approve of these things.

And as a kid I visted my Grandmothers grave and told her I was in school in the second grade. Was I a sinner for talking to her? These are such silly notions. That is why we cannot talk about religion. It gets testy.

What is wrong with speaking of the dead? This is so foolish. Is God going to forgive those priests for what they have done because they believe in Jesus? Shoot me if I did talk to my DAD after he died? What are we supposed to do?



Birdmom3

 

Birdmom,

I'm not sure where in the Old Testament Jews drop out, is it after the Torah? But in the remaining books of the Old, and then in the New Testament, Satan is a fallen Angel, in rebellion against God. I understand that Jews do not believe that, that instead, Satan is commissioned by God to tempt mankind, for without temptation to disobey, obedience to God is of no value. Either way, I expect that Jews and Christians agree that God wants our obedience. So we have common ground.

Where Christians get their notion of what Satan is can be found in the Old Testament books beyond the Torah, and in the New Testament. Why believe all that? Because each of the prophesies contained in those same books, prophesies that laid the ground work for the Son of God, the Messiah, to be born and do what He was to do, were fulfilled. And then the life of Jesus, as told by eye witness accounts, confirms His life and deeds on earth as true, His life being the ultimate fulfillment of the Old Testament prophesies. Now if Jews do not believe that the prophets of the Old Testament were authentic, then I can see why they would not believe that the prophesies were fulfilled, and therefore Jesus was an imposter. Belief in such things can only come from one's relationship with the scriptures. That's it. So there is no reason to debate this.

Back to Satan, in these further books of the Old and New Testament beyond the Torah, Satan is more than an angel commissioned to tempt man. He is a fallen angel in active rebellion against God Almighty. Not only that, but there are other, lesser fallen angels and even evil demons apart from fallen angels, demons who walk the earth looking for a host. You speak of Hitler. Many Christians expect that Hitler was one such host. And the hosting of evil can be found in all of mankind, even priests, even rabbi's, doctor's, lawyers, everyone. And that is why mankind requires a savior, to defeat this darkness, this propensity to disobey God and act out evil.

So let's talk about the spirit of evil. Christians believe that God is Spirit and that Spirit manifests as God the Father, who is in Heaven, the Kingdom of God; the Son, Who is essentially God in a man suit, Who lived as a man, died as a man, and can therefore be an intercessor between man and God the Father; and the Holy Spirit, God's Spirit, the Spirit of all the goodness and also the power of God. When man invites Jesus, God's intercessor, into his heart, Jesus comes in the form of the Holy Spirit, which by its mere presence in man's soul, saves man from the non-holy spirit that he is born with. By virtue of God's Spirit being present in man's soul, man is automatically judged righteous. Without that Spirit's presence, man can only be judged by the law, which law, as a Jew you are certainly familiar with. The spirit man is born with is not holy. All things unholy are of Satan and are destined to die. Only things holy are of God and are destined to live. God is perfect. Man is not. Therefore man is unholy to the respect that he is imperfect and requires salvation. The more imperfect is man, the more evil he is.

The Christian view is that forces of good and evil inhabit the spirit world, a world that we cannot see, at least few can see. And these forces work to influence us to whatever extent our own spirits allow. This brings us to the idea of speaking to the dead. For either good or evil spirits to take residence in one's soul, they must be invited in. How does that occur? How do we invite evil into our souls? By disobeying God. Every act against God's established will is sinful, of Satan. But in addition to merely disobeying God by our acts in the natural, man can go further. Man can actually invite evil itself into his soul, a spiritual act of pure defiance against God. And once given that authority, evil comes in. And when that happens, then man, prepared with a newly formed pattern of will, perpetrates more and more active disobedience to God's will, each time becoming more and more evil, taking on more evil spirit as he goes, reforming his pattern of will with each step.

So why not speak to the dead, and by that I do not mean as in your sense, merely invoking the name and thoughts of the departed and speaking to him or her as if they were present. No, I am talking about the use of mediums, persons who claim to be in contact with the spirit world, or even acting as one's own medium. I expect that folks who do so may indeed be in contact with something out here. Trishanne, in her thread I earlier invoked in this discussion, claimed to be in contact with the spirit world. I have no reason to disbelieve her. It makes Biblical sense. But because God forbids the use of mediums to contact the dead, as in the case of King Saul, the answering spirits can only be evil. Because man cannot know what is on the other side of the curtain to the spirit world, then man can also not know whether the spirit who answers is truth, or a lie. So God tells us not to do this. That tells us that any spirit who answers through a medium, would be unholy, evil. If it might be holy, then God would not have forbade us to make such efforts. And this is why I urge Cynthia to let it alone. Sure, she can speak of the departed, to the departed. But she must do so using the intercessor, Jesus Christ, not a medium. If she uses any other intercessor, even herself as a medium, she will likely be inviting pure evil to answer. And only Christians can use Jesus Christ in this fashion. If the Spirit of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit is not in one's soul, one has no permission to use it.

Look back at the Demon Possession thread I invoked earlier. Read again the experience told to us by Bluesky. I believe him 100%. And at the time the he wrote about, he asked God to deliver him from the evil that from all indications had come into his soul by virtue of his own invitation. Now remember, this is not what I say. This is what Bluesky said. So nobody give me a hard time about this. I merely read his story he wrote and believe it. So this stuff of disobeying God in the form of pure disobedience, spiritual disobedience, is serious stuff. Being a believer in this stuff, I expect that certain folks, Hitler for example, become empowered by strong evil forces in the spirit world, to perpetrate evil acts against God's greatest creation, mankind. So this force should not be entertained in our thoughts or actions. To do so could be the beginning of the hosting process.

Hey, you think I'm crazy? Well, even if I'm wrong about any and all of this, behaving in the manner which the scriptures urge will never hurt us. That being the case, it seems wise to ere on the side of the scriptures and leave the dead alone.

Hank

 

The Pope does not speak for all Christians - in fact just the Catholic religion.

Many Catholics do talk to their ancestors and Saints and pray to those who are passed. My belief is different and my choice is reflected upon my own belief and understand of the Bible.

As far as forgiving and commiting such horrible acts - someone can not truly believe in Jesus and commit such horrible acts. When you believe in Jesus you try and parrot Him and His actions - so I doubt those who committed acts of such evilness are believers in Jesus - they may bear a name or label = but only in name. And as far as forgiving - Jesus holds those answers.

Although the Jews suffered tremendously and Hitler was an evil man; unfortunately the Jewish people are not the only people to suffer thrur-ought history. Right now - present day - mass murders on scales of great magnitude are being committed in Africa - Araba and non Arabs...too horrific to recall but forever in my heart and mind. My heart aches for the Jews but also for those who are being killed at this present moment and for all those in history. I've seen tribal warfares and the after math of the .....

As far as cover-ups; those who hurt a child are wrong so very wrong and I have little patience for those poeple and those who cover up are just as wrong. I can not speak for the pope or Catholic people but those people who commit such acts should be punished severely.

Jesus does not sleep nor is He dead, just because things happen on earth does not mean that Jesus did them. But it is human nature to want to blame someone for the acts of evil and madness...my ancestors are the Native Americans - who to blame there? The white men all white men and women? The Bible states that the enemy/satan is control of this world - so the person responsible is satan not Jesus. But it also speaks in the Bible that many people will hate Jesus and be angry with Him, so I can see where injustice happens and the first thing/person to blame or hate would be Him.

 

Birdmom - We all have choices in this life and each person has a different journey. I can not tell you what journey/path to take nor could you tell me - we all have advice and opinions and in truth may only help some and not others. I have an opinion like others and I have rules and guidelines that I try and live by - does not mean that another person has such rules or well wish to follow the same guideliens that I do. In truth - each person must lead their own life and be responsible for their own decisions. The choices I make are good for me and my family - and I hope other people who believe in Jesus. There is a hint of anger in your words and this makes me sad for you.

I pray you peace; life is too short to be angry. I speak from example...I pray tomorrow finds you well.

 

Cynthia - I pray peace and understanding for you. I too have many questions and some days it/the questions eat at me like a crazed person and well I have no peace. It is then I stop and breathe and pray for peace. To lose my peace is a horrible feeling - one that I wish upon no other. many gentle hugs and prayers

note: I pray for signs and confirmation . I pray and ask God for such things or answers to - I don't ask people of this world or in this world to show me signs and confirmation. I can honestly say, that although not all things were answered or confirmed, there have been many times God heard my pleas. My momma was murdered when I was 10, I speak to her often. I do not pray to her but I do talk to her. How can I not? She is and was my mom.

 

and please do not underestimate Jesus and the signs He gives us - an eagle soaring, a rainbow, a dream, a word from another person, a scent a sunrise or moon..............a gentle peace an un-warranted fear or sense - .......

 

Those were very interesting. Thank you. I will think about them.

Birdmom3

 

bird - I have thought of you often this weekend and a smile formed each time - I hope this week finds you well and filled with peace and joy.

 

Aladdin, you touched me deeply with your words. Thank you for that.

 

Hank, your knowledge and understanding of the Bible has helped me tremendously in your recent post concerning this issue. I had never thought about the fact that those spirits contacted could be LYING. We would not receive the truth. I guess God only wants us to get the truth from Him alone as He is the only one that would not lie to us. The Bible does say, that God is not a man that He should lie.

I do know from personal experience that Jesus Christ is not dead. He has visited me and my son when he was dying. My son was only 4 years old when this happened and he shared it with both his father and I. I have not had the privilege of SEEING JESUS, but I knew he was right there in front of me. Hard to explain. On the other hand my son at the age of 4 did SEE JESUS. He was not on drugs, not in the hospital, having a good spell with the Cystic Fibrosis. He had been playing when it happened and he came immediately to tell me about it. I recorded it all in a journal and I know my son is alive today because of it. When asked, "What did Jesus look like." My 4 year old son's response at the time, keep in mind he is 27 today; "He was bright and shining like the sun, no, Momma he was brighter than the sun." He very patiently explained to his poor bewildered parents that Jesus does not look anything like the pictures in Sunday school. I asked my son, "What did Jesus say to you?" Again our 4 year old at that time, Joshua said, "Jesus told me he loved me and liked me." I was blown away. You see I came from a very disfunctional family where I was told, "I do not love you, I do not like you." So I determined I would always tell my children, "Not only do I love you, but I like you." So it blew me away that Jesus told the same thing to my son!
After these experiences it is hard to understand why my son still has Cystic Fibrosis, why I have Meniere's disease and am completely deaf with unbelievable suffering. All I know is my son and I myself too were blessed with a visit from a Jesus, the Messiah who is not dead and loves us deeply. My visitation occured on a different time and setting from my son.

 

I need to post to continue to get the replies on this subject. Started it (only got to page seven) and something has come up - sorry for the inconvience.

 

I'm going to stick my head in and say this. Thank goodness I'm not Christian and can go right on believing my brother is AOK

Do people like you even stop to THINK about how your words might hurt another person Chris? I'm willing to bet not. Doesn't your Christ preach acceptance and being kind?

-shakes head- People wonder why christians have a bad name.

 

An unforgivable sin - this is a theological question? I would ask those who know the scriptures well what words do the bible use in regard to suicide? Not what you think it says. not what does it mean or how it applies but simply what does it say - word for word? Isn't this the question one must ask before tryng to apply it to ones belief?

Of course I have my own ideas but I don't know what the list of sins are and what is, specifically said about them - not what I think they say but what they actually say.

I believe we, as humans, have the tendency to take a quote from a scripture and go straight to what we think it means instead of asking the first simple question, what does it say? sometimes it's as simple as that; it says what it says - it means no more or less than that.

So, I ask, what does the bible say about suicide?

 

The only unforgivable sin of which I am aware is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, according to Jesus. I do not know why that would be however. Any thoughts on that?

 

Hank, This link may answer your question. The bottom line is that every sin is forgiven except rejection of the conviction of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is Lord. Therefore, rejecting Christ is the same as blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

According to God's word, therefore, suicide is like any other sin......paid for by the blood of Christ.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html

 

Thanks, Kim. That makes good sense. I heard John Hagee once say that the greatest sin is to reject a gift from God. That being the case, rejecting the gift of the Holy Spirit would be rejecting the greatest gift from God, and insomuch would would constitute rejection of salvation. Actually that makes perfect sense. Thanks for that.

 

O.K. so humor me, what/who is the holy spirit? All I understand it to be is that you must be babized in the holy spirit to understand gods words.

 

Holly I grew up a little girl in the United Methodist Church and one day I asked him, the preacher, "I understand who Jesus is, He is the Son of God, I understand God is God, but who is the Holy Spirit?" The preacher just stared down at me as I was a little girl and he never answered my question.

It was not until I got born again and then baptized in the Holy Spirit that I finally understood what the Holy Spirit is. This was not until my twenties.

The Holy Spirit is just as it states in the name itself, emphasis on Holy. There are evil spirits in the world and then there is only one Holy Spirit. Jesus states it can come like the wind, you don't know which direction it will come from and then change directions. Jesus likened the Holy Spirit to the wind. Also Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to the Comforter. When we die we have a spirit. There is only one Holy Spirit and it belongs to the Trinity. It comes from God. Jesus told us it was better for us that he die so the Holy Spirit would come. Jesus, we are able to feel his presence and God's presence because of the Holy Spirit. What we really feel is HIS SPIRIT.

The Bible also teaches us the Holy Spirit baptism will manifest in us by signs, wonders and speaking in tongues. The book of Acts has all of this recorded.

I have spoken in tongues just like recorded in the Bible when I was asking God to forgive me of a past sin, I was with a very small group of people. All of a sudden a rushing wind went down my throat and filled my belly and came back out with me speaking in a very loud voice in tongues. The man leading the prayer group and Bible study was given the interpretation right then and there. I was stunned and overcome with joy as I realised the Holy Spirit had filled me at that given point in time. I felt it physically and felt the presence of God. It was HIS HOLY SPIRIT!

 

I would also like to state while typing here on this very topic the Holy Spirit, that when I typed there are evil spirits in this world it is also recorded in the Bible. Jesus cast out the evil spirits. Remember the herd of swine that ran off the cliffs?

Well that being stated if you watch documentaries on television which I am sure some of us have at one point in our lives about vodoo ceremonies where they show their eyeballs rolling back in their heads and they are writhing all over the place physically, it is my understanding these people have asked for the spirits to inhabit them and give them visions and such. But it is not the HOLY SPIRIT. They have sought out a different spirit and it is not a good one.

The church asks for the Holy Spirit. Outside the church, whether vodoo ceremonies, witchcraft, seances, they are asking for the spirits, but not the HOLY SPIRIT. You get what you ask for? That is why God forbids it in the Old Testament.

I hope this sheds some light on the Holy Spirit. I don't claim to have all the answers or know everything but hope this helps.