"Why is it important for non-believers to prove there is no God?"

This question is posed for an article I am writing for the August issue of a Christian magazine. I've been working on it for awhile. If you reply your words may or may not be reworded for use in the body of the article - of course no name or affiliation (sp) will be noted. But some replies may be posted in a magazine that is read mostly by Christians.

In general I pose two questions: "Why is it okay for those who do not believe in the existance of God think it is important to prove there is no God?

Does a believer have as much right to speak openly about Christ as those who speak openly about the non belief of Christ?

Examples of personal experiences would be appreciated. I have nystagmus today so reading is kind of hard but if you would keep the answers relatively short it would be greatly appreciated as someone will read them for me.

But when you answer please tell me the truth; I thank you tremendously if you reply. But please answer honestly and I promise I will try not to be offended.

 

thank you

children; I've met several children who seemed to grasp the concept of God and truly believe it while others there are are told/taught by their parents - and I am talking at a young age of eight -

 

say, you two have my brain going!

 

well that's good - my brain is gone - my attention span has left - i need to rest and prepare to meet with headnoise tomorrow - it's not oregon but it's the closest we can get -

xoxo

 

I would love for you to talk with my husband. He was "taught" by his parents (both athiests) about the "impossibility" of there being a god. His father, a scientist and mother, a college professor both feel a need to belittle those of us who are believers. But only in very subtle ways. We love them and we don't try to shove Jesus down their throats (that's up to the Holy Spirit, anyway ;D) or even defend our faith. When Steve asked Jesus into his heart at age 45, he became a new man. He had explored EVERYTHING out there (and I mean everything). Jesus filled him up for the first time and he has never let go

Anyway, my opinion (and it is only an opinion) is that everyone needs someone or something to place on the throne. If you have no God, you have no choice but to place yourself on the throne. You create your own destiny. You are the one who matters. Self esteem and contributions come from and are of you. Even the most altruistic athiest has HIMSELF to honor in his altruism. And honor becomes important; respect becomes paramount. Thus, the need to let others in on his superior discovery.....no god, no reason to not be "the one". Self rules.

My husband's father knows that his son is a strong, committed Christian, yet he can't help the digs, the challenges, the "prove it to me" attitude. And he has two PhDs, so we listen to the science, philosophy, and historical "lessons" on why there is no god.

But they do recognize and frequently comment on how Steve is a changed man because of his belief. Go figure.

Steve is very laid back and peaceful. I don't think they counted on getting someone like ME as a daughter-in-law Those of you who know me will be able to relate to the horror that polite, elite, sophisticated people experience when I get on a Jesus roll My colleagues at work are used to me and either find me a curiosity or someone they come to in times of trouble. Anyway, I really don't care if it's politically correct to talk about Jesus at a State college or not. They haven't fired me yet And I'm sure as anything not going to hide my love of Jesus behind closed doors....nope....not when he hung on the cross for me.

Best wishes for a successful article.

 

thank you for the input- hugs and prayres dear friend

 

Aladdin, it seems to me that the more education you have the more less likely you are to believe in God. We know the Bible says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, The Apostle Paul is the perfect example of a highly educated man not believing until He met Jesus on the road to damascus. As people gain more earthly wisdom they somehow fall into the devils trap of pride. Our pride keeps us from saying we need help. Our pride keeps us from saying we are sinners and we are wrong. And that pride keeps atheists digging at us believers to just make them feel more secure in their beliefs, but I also believe it shows that deep down they still have a doubt. They are not 100% sure, but that pride just keeps them down. The old devil works hard to keep them down, look what it took to wake Paul up. We need to really be in Prayer for this country that God will reach down and change alot more people into believers like Paul. Unforntunately alot of them will have to have a bad experience like Paul had to change, but its better than the alternative.

 

can't say I agree with you, Leviticus about education. I wonder how non-believers proselytizing is different from believer doing the same? Seems folks who have strong believes have a desire/need to have others adopt same. There is such good discussion material on this forum lately. neat!

 

Quote from Aladdin: "Why is it okay for those who do not believe in the existence of God think it is important to prove there is no God?
The subject title of the thread and this are different questions but in either case I don't think the question can be answered for a group--it varies for each person who is asked. Some who don't believe in the existence of God don't have any investment in proving or disproving his existence. Others are determined to prove this. Why? I think this is personality specific--those with strong internal locus of control or those who don't care what others think may feel no need to prove or disprove anything. Those who rely on others for their sense of well being may feel nore need to prove or disprove something. Even these statements, however, may be too general to answer the question. The questions as asked, may make an implicit assumption that may not be accurate. How many people do feel a need to disprove the existence of God? I never did even when I was much more of an atheist than agnostic.

Does a believer have as much right to speak openly about Christ as those who speak openly about the non belief of Christ?

Of course and there are rare instances in which they are not given equal privilege to do so. Even in secular environments, like state or public schools, it would be considered just as inappropriate to proselytize about atheism as it would to witness for Christ. Taking down the ten commandments doesn't give license to atheists to preach their philosophy. Again, there is something about the question that seems to make assumptions that I don't think are universally or even generally applicable. A counter argument might be the separation of church and state doctrine but that is often confused or twisted into religion and the state can't co-exist--that isn't what the doctrine says. Again, someone preaching an anti religious doctrine would have no more or less right to a forum than someone preaching about the glory of the lord. In my part of the country (very religious and conservative), Christian rehtoric is propagated and tolerated much more than the obverse. In other parts of the country, my guess is the reverse is true.

(Kim Titus quote in blue) "Anyway, my opinion (and it is only an opinion) is that everyone needs someone or something to place on the throne. If you have no God, you have no choice but to place yourself on the throne. You create your own destiny. You are the one who matters. Self esteem and contributions come from and are of you. Even the most altruistic athiest has HIMSELF to honor in his altruism. And honor becomes important; respect becomes paramount. Thus, the need to let others in on his superior discovery.....no god, no reason to not be "the one". Self rules".

Kim, I don't agree with the either/or premise there anymore than I did when I responded to one of Sarita's recent assertions. Your statement is indicative of a very common position taken in the battle between the evangelicals and the humanists. If something has to be on the "throne", (and that is subject to debate as well) then why can't it be a common value like, "I place above me in all circumstances that which I see as good for humanity--in all cases in which these two, my needs and the greater needs of mankind, come into conflict, my needs shall be subservient to the needs of humanity."

This neither affirms nor denies the existence of God--it merely states a value or belief which could explain why you don't need to have either yourself or the deity on the throne. Those of us with biological children of our own also know that one can place the needs and value of others above us without appealing to abstractions or arguments about whether altrusim is real or whether God exists.

And finally, in reference to your comment, "you create your own destiny", about half the Christians I know have moved far from the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination--they don't see themselves as on a track inexorably determined by their God or, to quote Jonathan Edwards, as "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", like spiders over the eternal flames of damnation, but as children of a loving God--when their actions are selfish or sinful, they move farther from him, when the act in a loving manner or ask for redemption, the are cradled more in his loving arms. I suspect the loving God is the one you embrace, but my belief is that this God allows us the choice to move closer or farther from him. I realize there is scripture (hundreds of verses) dealing with predestination, opening this to great debate, but whether God knows who he elects to save and bring into the kingdom of heaven, the concept of redemption loses all value if we allow oursleves to believe we have no control since things are preordained.

 

the bible says 'too much knowledge increases sorrow'

I believe in a solid education and inspire my children to obtain one. But speaking for myself when I was on the road to a doctorate; I had to make pretty tough decisions. I chose to put my children and being a mother first and my education last. I never regretted that decision. All the education I received and degrees are meaningless to me now. I think that when we learn and expand our minds and educate ourselves excessively we tend to rely upon our own understandings and not that of the Lord. Yes, we do over educate people. Some ministers in certain denominations have to attend college plus additional years before they can teach/preach at a church? Catholics seminaries are turning into cemetaries (sp).

I believe highly in gaining a valuable education; but I do agree that too much education and not enough common sense and couthe (sp) hinders us. Also, again, we tend to rely upon our ownselves and our own understand...not God or waiting on His plans or purpose. there is only so much book knowledge that a person can receive...head and heart knowledge is far more valuable...and God knowledge trumphs it all...I received my college education later in life and I sometimes think back and realize how full of myself I was...how I knew everything or at least thought I did...later in life I realize that I don't know anything and am learning more each day...instead of being full of myself I want to be full of God...GF stated about strong believes have a desire/need to have others adopt same...that is so true...but as a Christian I'm trying not change others beliefs just openly and honestly show Christ like actions and words - set an example - for those who are hurting and may need a hand up - I would love to write more but I'm exhausted - a stupid mini attack hit several hours earlier-

xoxo

 

Jim - thank you for the replies. Regardless of the question or wording by my editor ...that is the topic questions and ideas given to me for an article. I will say what I mean and vice versa...and I expect others to do the same. But sometimes this darn disease hinders me and my attention span becomes null...

'Some who don't believe in the existence of God don't have any investment in proving or disproving his existence.' quote from Jim

ah but I beg to differ on that; speaking from my own observations and personal experiences. It's almost as if the name Christian leaves a bad taste in othes mouths ...

You hit the nail on the head with one concept in general - control - I never really thought about it that way. Control is a big issue for many people and Religion is about as much control over someone as you can achieve.

I beg to differ about the equality of rights for those who believe in God/Christ - but you have your own opinions as do I. You view the world from your eyes and I view the world from my own and my own experiences.

Jim - i re-read your post - to pose their believes on others for a self enhancement - (sorry but I don't scroll back and forth well) I've seen that happen in Christians, non-believers, and believers. I was married to a man who professed to be a Christian and minister and he demonstrated some very anti - Christ like qualities - control and self enhancement were some of them.

merci

 

many people spend time and energy achieving commodities - that other aspects of life go to the way side - I sometimes wish our world was simpler - how many cars, diamond rings, houses, dresses, gucci hand bags, DG sunglasses, do we need?

I've wathced in sadness as many young and bright minds have turned away from their passions (in college) such as teaching, historian, archeologists, to other fields that are more productive in obtaining financial gain and disposable monies. As a society we look toward money to solve our problems...in fact it can enhance them at times.

not to hijack my own thread - but I'm looking for answers to the questions I posed..but very good conversating

 

intrepid - behaviors of others can put off or rub others the wrong way? that is so very true - I've been around people that just by their actions caused me not to want to seek them out or fellowship with them - in one hand they were raising high and praising God and the other hand was pointing fingers in judgment at those nereby. There are churches that I will not step foot into because of the people who attend...maybe I'm being the one judgmental...but i've been judged harshly by fellow Christians because I was a single mother. My father always told me that actions speak louder than words - and he was so right.

 

i have to sign off - i have several days to spend with headnoise and need my rest

will check back later for answers

merci

ps: Jim, how would you propose I re-phrase the questions? If you have an idea shoot it to me and I'll submit to my editor.

before I had MM I never knew such a disease or Superior Canal Dehiscence existed. I was blind and deaf to this disease long before I was diagnosed with it. As a person who believes in Christ and is filled with the Holy Spirit; I was also blind and deaf for many years. Once I opened my eyes and ears to those around me and the world I realized several things. Things that I never realized before because I wanted to be a popular Christian; I wanted to be politically correct and stay neutral so I had blinders on to many issues that Christians face. If i wasnt a Christian or kept my blinders on I wouldn't see things as I do now. We each have a path in life and I know mine. I hope peace and less suffering for all.

And yes, Intrepid, truth is Christ.

 

your verse quoted is from Ecclesiates 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow"
one of my favorite passages (there are several in Eccl. that are) and also one of the most paradoxical--the author attempts to understand the world by reason but determines he can't and that all mans actions are fleeting and inconsequential (and perhaps predetermined) yet life is worth living
I agree there is only so much book knowledge that one can use, but I rarely see examples when I believe one has gone too far in that direction--more often than not, I see people operating form the gut, attempting to simplify things in a confusing and complex world--but to borrow a term from another related thread, we may be hard wired to be inclined to do this also

as far as our differences in opinion, I was alluding to that when I commented on the way the questions were worded--as far as whether Christians rights are abridged, we could debate that forever but most Americans believe in God and the vast majority of those are Christian--my statement simply said some who don't believe don't feel the need to disprove anything--it wasn't a statistical statement to be refuted--if I have met 2 (and I have met 100), the statement is true--if we want to debate using numbers, then "liberal" wins out over Christian for having a negative connotation (also, as a non christian growing up in the USA, I am bound to have a different opinion about who was persecuted)

how to reprhase the quesions? depends on what answers you want
but perhaps, "Why do some non believers feel the need to disprove the existence of God?"
"Do believers have the same rights as non believers when it comes to public expression of their beliefs?"


need to get back to the winding Patuli while the moon is still bright overhead...enough discourse for me for a while

 

I have not read all the answers but it states in the Bible that the world would hate Him, the unbelieving world. I see this to be true as what other reason for the hate. In the bible the word hate could be used as just unbelieveing, I say this before anyone says I don't hate God

 

thanks charisse

jim - i like the disprove one - i was thinking about it last night - and the word disprove came to mind - thanks i'll shoot that one to her and see what she says..i'm sure it'll be fine...thanks again

off to see headnoise

 

Today, traditional is old fashioned. New is good.

We worry about tolerance (not saying this is a bad thing) but tolerance only seems to apply to accepting any new ideas and non-Christian beliefs.

It's hard to stay P/C on this subject. That in itself answers one of the questions you posted I believe.

I've closed a post or two with "We can agree to disagree". Some folks can, some feel the need to keep going to try to prove their point. Can't tell you why that is.

 

I am a non believer who does not need to disprove the existance of a god. I don't care what anyone else believes.

I have seen and read of actions taken in the name of different religions. Those actions are abhorrent to me.

The only thing in my life that is on a throne is my family.

I am tolerant when the proselytizers knock and my door and tell me I am going to hell.

 

www.atheists.org I think proves that this is not the case for at least some people. They are actively trying to remove God from our culture. I have heard of people who claim to be atheists who have had bad experiences in their past. Perhaps they prayed to God that someone dear to them would not die, and yet they died. They cannot believe that God could be so cruel and take away their loved one. So instead they decide to just not believe in God at all. It is easier that way. (I am not saying this is the case for every one, just for some people I am aware of.)

So, in order to prevent others from suffering the disappointment and hurts that they had by God not answering their prayers, or preventing some injustice or disaster, or whatever the circumstance was - they decide to try to convince others to spare themselves that pain and give up believing in some myth or fantasy that there is a God who cares about them.

This is sort of a means of self preservation. Although I do agree that there is a measure of control that some people want to maintain over their lives and not relinquish that control to some unknown, there are often additional circumstances that add to the mix.

I am not going to be like Dr Drew who diagnosed Tom Cruise, a Scientologist, without ever having met him. How presumptuous! I think that for as many reasons as people believe in God, there are as many reasons for people who do not and feel compelled to tell others their beliefs.