Topic removed from a church Facebook page.

to the church leaders : : definetly not open minded leaders.

 

You got it Ruth; and I noticed at this one church that I used to attend back in the mid 90's where the pastor would give this awesome fiery sermon every week that got you pumped up, but then when I approached him after service with a hardcore question he'd be like "ummm uhhhh I'll pray for ya brother" - and would look at his watch and say he has to get going.

 

Okay, jumpin in with both feet ...

Sometimes I think we put a whole lot of emphasis on what the CHURCH can do for me & don't bother with what I can contribute to the church. I've been going through a dry spell ... our preacher left & we've had this substitute guy who just ... doesn't ... make it interesting - at least not as interesting as our old preacher. So I sat there & ruminated every Sunday for the past month or so. I'd pick at every thing he said that annoyed me. I'd notice every time he did something that was ... weird. I'd imagine the attendance falling off because of HIM. His sermon was boring. His mannerisms were quirky.
Last Sunday we had the Lord's Supper & I skipped taking it because I was starting to realize my heart wasn't 'right'. At evening service the music minister played some songs that ... spoke to me. I felt the proverbial slap upside my head ... it's NOT all about ME. As I heard David Jeremiah say once "we should feel HONORED to be able to attend church." It's not about the entertainment factor. It's not about awarding God with my presence - like He's SOOO lucky to have me. It's not because all the people are perfect. It's not because the preacher is PERFECT. It's because I want to go to a place where mostly like-minded lovers of Christ are gathered to worship & praise Him & study His word. I want to have other people around me to hold me up when I sag & to challenge me when I'm confused & to enlighten me when I'm ignorant.

Amazingly the sermon in that evening service went straight to my heart. Hopefully I got over myself during that service, if only a little. The preacher may not be as eloquent & fired-up as I'd like - or as "perfect" as we think he should be - but my God is still the same & I like worshipping Him in my church, surrounded by my similarly imperfect friends.

Maybe I've strayed off course with this little sermon I've posted, but ... I dunno ... I just get so weary of churches & "bad preachers" being the focus when it's not about church or flawed men. It's about a heart-deep relationship with Christ. If the "church" as an organization is screwing up, FIX the church! You're probably not the only one who realizes something's wrong.

Chris, I love ya buddy, but I truly believe Christ wants us to gather with other Christians & worship Him. United we stand... It's too hard alone.

 

I love ya right back Joy, and I already mentioned that I do have a father, best friend, next door neighbors, and actually two co-workers who are all devout christians and I discuss things with them all the time. So to me "I" am the church and these people I speak of are the congregation, and right now that is all I need and I also continue to pray & praise God every night as well.

 

Well okie dokie then

 

No, that’s not church; that’s a dictatorship. You're using CHURCH people as puppets for your benefit, when it suits you. But there is no system of accountability for you. They do the heavy lifting, you benefit from their hard work.

The Christian church is a group of sinners seeking to worship God together, to be assured of forgiveness, to have a system of fellowship and accountability; to work together in community and world outreach.

You accuse the church of very specific sins. Well you’re right; we are all sinners, including you. You just don’t see your sins.

For example, you have shattered the first commandment by establishing yourself as the god of your little universe at home. The head of the church is Christ; not Chris.

You are accusing the members of your previous church of back-biting. Back-biting = malicious talk without the knowledge of the persons you are accusing. Like what you are doing here in talking about your previous church, and inciting others to do the same. You are disparaging the character of your previous church pastor and leaders without really knowing their reasons for doing anything they do. You disparage all churches with broad accusations when you haven’t even stepped foot in all but a few! That is bearing false testimony. Another commandment shattered.

You accuse other Christians of gossiping. Gossip = conversations about other people that are not confirmed. You have no idea why that pastor shut down that web link. But you speculate and gossip about him and the leaders of your previous church. And not only are you engaged in gossip; you started it with this thread - allowing and encouraging others to malign the character of people they don't even know.

The charge of hypocrisy: Hypocrisy = claiming to have moral standards that you do not conform to. In addition to all of the above, you keep CHURCH people as your ready reference at your fingertips, using them as puppets – but at the same time claiming you don’t need church. They ARE the church, and you are gleaning wisdom from them as you choose, using them, disparaging the character of the people of all churches and having no responsibility or accountability to your own character flaws!

Until you confront that pastor and ask why, then you don't know why he shut down that link and all this speculation is gossip. And if you would actually man up and talk to him directly, he would most likely give you a very good reason. (As if he owes you one – you’re not a member.) Apparently that link, which was supposed to be used as an outreach tool for the church you left years ago, was not being used for the purposes for which it was designed. Maybe some other pictures or language was filtering in that the pastor deemed inappropriate for the church, or for children to see. Maybe your ‘nice’ conversations weren’t as nice as you say or think. Regardless, the link was not designed as an open mic for Chris to promote the virtues? of HIS church. It was not a conduit for Chris to spout HIS beliefs. For whatever the reason, the link was shut down. Their link; their decision; their dime. Get over it!

If you do decide to talk to the pastor about this, you owe him the courtesy of sitting and listening, not doodling parachutes on church bulletins with the caption: "This is waaaaay over my head!"

Only children demand “My way! I’ll show you! I’ll prove you wrong! “Don’t talk to me, I’ll parachute outta here!” Man up and join the church – learn from the sermons and the Bible classes; work with them to improve the church and the world. Or, leave them in peace.

 

A wise pastor said to me, "if you find the perfect church, you won't be in it." My husband and I were questioning him about their "method" of praise and worship. We took what he said to heart and he explained his "take" on our questions.

Chris, as I said before, I understand how you can be turned off by events that happen or do not happen in your congregation or in any particular congregation. But WE are the body of Christ and Christ is the head of our church. The early church was held together because believers came together as groups and carried one another's burdens, praised and worshipped God, and preached the Gospel.

I read what Joy and Prima Donna wrote and their posts spoke to my heart.

 

Prima Donna - I believe I have already gone over it several times that I grew up going to church, then I walked away for a few years as a teenager and young adult but came back for 10 years on my own, and that I have read the Bible and attended Bible study for several years as well, so I am fully aware of what goes on inside a church and what's inside the Bible as well. And so instead of waving a holy & judgemental finger at me back and forth like most people at church are doing towards those who don't attend church, try and learn a little more about the whole story and the big picture and how I got to this point in my walk. And I am totally a sinner and have to ask God for forgiveness, grace, and mercy everyday; so you were wrong about me thinking that I am without sin too.

I'm once again out to prove that it's OK to follow and worship God both inside and outside of church as both a member and non member, and just because you attend service does not make you any holier or less of a sinner than the rest of us.

 

Here's a personal blog that I wrote on Facebook earlier this year that might clear alot of this up:

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=302153356661

 

Chris,

Surely you can find a church somewhere where there's some people you can connect with that are into this stuff like you are. 75% of the US is Christian. There has to be one good egg there somewhere in Florida.

I wish Sydney had Buddhist temples like you get in Thailand. I'd be there every week for a peaceful chill, light some incense, and stick some gold leaf on the Buddha. I don't believe in any of the dogmatic nonsense but i really dig the people in those temples, the atmosphere, and the cultural stuff.

Maybe you need to look harder to find a place to hang out.

ps. there is no such word as "alot". It's two words.

 

That's just it I am sure there are plenty of good churches out there, but if you read my blog you'll see that I don't have the desire to go anymore and I have plenty of supportive christians around me that act as my fellowship group.

 

Yes, I know your story, doesn't everyone? I now officially know more about your life than I do about my own. {Did I say that out loud? I mean, did I type that out loud?}

Just an fyi: When someone states an opinion, an observation about you, and that person happens to be a Christian, that doesn’t mean that person is ‘wagging a holy finger.’ I am not holy. I am observant.

You toss out these smarmy phrases and broad generalizations so often that any point you try to make is so diluted that it means nothing.

I don’t expect you to see the irony of you finger-wagging, gossiping, back-biting and being hypocritical and then accusing not only your previous churches but all churches of the same.

I don’t expect you to see the irony of you claiming you don’t need church but here you are on a mission to connect with them.

I don’t expect you’ll see the irony of you having the lowest opinion of churches and then trying to convince us and yourself that you can play nice with them.

But I would ask before you toss out accusations against all churches that you keep this in mind:

Our church is filled with people of various races and personalities, with strengths and weaknesses, each person with unique talents and contributions. We argue, work together, solve our differences, worship together, take Bible classes together. Where one person is weak, another is strong. When someone is suffering, there are others to come alongside. When there is a need, we work together to provide it. We are a family and by sheer numbers alone, not to mention the diverse talents, we can accomplish much good in this world. A church goes beyond ‘me, my needs, my desires’ and works for the benefit of the community and the world. We’re not perfect, but we try to do these things out of a heart of love for God and others.

Our pastors sacrifice their lives away for their congregations. They preach sermons; teach Bible classes; visit shut-ins, the sick and dying. They officiate at every baptism, wedding and funeral of the members of their churches. They are 24/7 on-call counselors. They oversee mission outreach and all the various functions of the church. They do these things and so much more while attending to their own personal lives. They see more misery in a week, than most people will see in a lifetime. But everything is done with a servant’s joyful heart. If you knew these men, you’d change your attitude fast to “Maybe there are more churches and pastors out there like this one.” But if you’re looking for flaws in others to provide justification for your decisions, I’m sure that’s what you’ll always find.

The vast majority of churches with pastors and members like this, deserve better than insults being hurled at them.

Go and do what you want Chris as to worship. Makes no difference to me. I don’t wish you any harm. But if you hate organized religion so much, then leave it in peace. I can only ask that you please cease with the broad generalizations and assumptions. I can ask. {sigh}

 

I respect your opinions and feelings about this Prima Donna and I will try and tame things down in the future.

 

The church is an institution. That says it all.

 

Thanks PD!!!

 

Chris,

If you took more Vitamin C, it probably wouldn't bother you so much.

LOL. Sorry, couldn't help myself.... ;D

 

Ummmm - ok? ???