This Picture Says a Boatload

Discussion in 'Your Religion & Spiritual Corner' started by Henrysullivan, Oct 5, 2010.

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  1. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

  2. Titus

    Titus New Member

    Cool :)
     
  3. Aladdin

    Aladdin Guest

    I am smiling!
     
  4. Butterfly

    Butterfly I will learn to fly agian.

  5. Chris0515

    Chris0515 New Member

    One nation - under God! ;D
     
  6. Cara

    Cara New Member

    Cool!
     
  7. dizzysheba01

    dizzysheba01 New Member

  8. Aladdin

    Aladdin Guest

    I just saw the huge flag at first and it took another look to see the cross - how awesome is that?
     
  9. barnyardbird

    barnyardbird Guest

    One nation,indivisible,with liberty and justice for all.
     
  10. Aladdin

    Aladdin Guest

    words are mere words

    but a picture can speak volumes
     
  11. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
     
  12. karenlr

    karenlr New Member

    I love it! We need to be reminded about the principals that this country was founded on. Not freedom from religion, but freedom of religion. We get to choose
     
  13. Aladdin

    Aladdin Guest

    that is one of the most profound and true statements i have heard in a very long time
     
  14. June-

    June- New Member

    Actually, it is founded on separation of church and state which was a brand new idea at the time. Nobody has to support an official state church like the Church of England. We are free to support and worship however we want or not at all. It was the churches (except for the Church of England) who were the biggest supporters of this because in colonial days, if you were a Baptist (fill in the blank with any religion), you still had to support the Church of England financially. You had to be a member of the Church of England to hold any important position. And of course sometimes the other (anything but the Church of England) religions were persecuted. THe same system went on in other countries where the state required subjects to support the state church. In the US the constitution requires that the state stay the heck out of people's religious observance and not require or prohibit them from supporting any church or religious belief. Only this way, can people not constantly fight with one another over which should be THE official state church. Sadly, many church goers today do not know this history and understand how it benefits them. But without this everyone today would have to support the Episcopal Church. So if you are not an Episcopal, you need separation of church and state. As the demographics change, it is likely that the majority in the US will soon be Catholic so if you are not a Catholic, you want the separation of church and state to continue. Even if you just think you should get to make up your own mind if and where to go to church you need separation of church and state.
     
  15. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Well, actually, I do not see that that is entirely correct, June. And I don't mean to seem negative, but here is what I know:

    "By the year 1702 all 13 American colonies had some form of state-supported religion. This support varied from tax benefits to religious requirements for voting or serving in the legislature. Below are excerpts from colonial era founding documents citing these religious references.

    Most instances of state-supported religion were removed before 1850, and the remaining requirements became null and void after the passing of the 14th Amendment on July 28, 1868. New Hampshire and North Carolina removed the nullified religious references from their state constitutions in 1875 and 1877 respectively."


    The states, the people and the Unites States government are the three parties to the Constitution contract. At the time the Constitution was proposed for ratification at that time, every one of the 13 colonies had as a requirement to hold public office that they believed in God. They may not have required that any individual believe in God, but they did require a belief in God to hold public office. Those requirements were removed in time, the latest of which was North Carolina which did not remove the requirement of a belief in God until 1875 and New Jersey in 1877. Here are the timelines by which state sponsored religions were established and removed:

    [​IMG]

    Source: http://undergod.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000069
     
  16. studio34

    studio34 Guest

    Your picture might apply to some Americans but it does not represent about 25% of the population. You've written them off because the cross is meaningless to them.

    [​IMG]

    June is correct. The separation of church and state is a legal and political principle derived from various documents of several of the Founders of the United States. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."
     
  17. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    I hate to burst your bubble, good friend from down-under, previously from up above these states which are united, but each of the states in question who proposed the Constitution for ratification, had as a requirment at the time, that any public office holder either be a member of a particular established religion, or vow belief in God as a protestant.

    Furthermore, the Constitutional convention of 1787 convened under authority granted to it under the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union of 1783. If you read that document, you will discover that it acknowldges God as the source of its authority in two ways. First, it acknowledges that it was the Great Governor of the World Who inclined the hearts of the conventioners to convene and propose to form a government of the design that document requires. But also, that document under which formed the first United States government ratifies that the nation to which that government should rule was founded under the Declaration of Independence, which document required that it was the natural laws of God which entitlesd them to severe political ties with Great Britain and form that same new nation, and a government for that nation. It does so having stated that the nation whose government was establish under that document was being proposed in the 7th year of that nation's existence. The Constituion's Article VII makes a similar reference to the Declaration, stating that it was proposed for ratification in the 12th of that same nation's existence, the same nation reasoned into existence under the Declaration of Independence in 1776.

    The Constitutional convention convened under the authority granted to it under Article 9 of the Articles of Confederation. So in essence, the presnt day Constitution of the United States comprised three documents, the Constitution for one and the Articles of Conferation and Declaration of Independence by reference as the remaining two. For this reason, notwithstanding the Treaty of Paris of 1783, ratified by congress as signed under the authority of the Holy Trinity, America is truly, one nation under God.
     
  18. June-

    June- New Member

    Henry, I am unclear what part of my post you find incorrect. The first amendment stands. Like all of our constitutional rights protecting us from government, it was extended to the states after the civil war. I am also unclear why a religious man would not hold this most dear of all our rights. But to each his own.

    For those who would like to read more, here's some of the history. http://www.menieres.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2970;type=avatar
     
  19. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Where I believe someone could misconstrue your words is that, the First Amendment only applies to acts of congress on the national level. It does not apply to the states, or government in particular. And if today, a state decided to establish a state religion, nothing in the First Amendment would preclude that. To do so would be a state's right if legally enacted. Similarly, religious displays on government property were not and are not covered by the Frst Amemdment. I know that you did not say that they were, but many people look to the First Amendment to believe that this separation deals with religious displays on government property no matter whether it was state property or federal property. And that is a mistake and is why I bring this up. Nothing in the US Consitution prohibits the various state governments from establishing an official state religion on a state by state basis. So this amendment is not a blanket principle that applies to government in general, only the Federal government and only with respects to acts of the federal congress.
     
  20. June-

    June- New Member

    I believe you better run that by the Supreme Court. The second amendment fans aren't going to support than interpretation and although I have not done the research and can't cite cases, I believe you will find that the question has already been settled regarding the first amendment. I don't have time to do it now but perhaps in a week.

    Meanwhile, I am still surprised that a man to whom his own religious beliefs are so important would be advocating that the state be able to tell him he has to support a religion the state prescribes and may even preclude the practice of his own religion. What church do you belong to Henry? Is it one you believe is so widespread and entrenched in the majority that without a constitutional protection the legislatures would always enact laws favoring your beliefs? Would you really want people to be forced to say they believe what you do even though they don't? Do you really need the state to enforce your beliefs? Aren't they strong enough to stand on their own?

    The first amendment is first and foremost desired and needed by religious people. The people who tell them differently are trying to make a buck at their expense without regard to our longheld desire for freedom of thought and worship.

    Perhaps when I said 'separation of church and state' you thought I mean state as in Georgia and that is why you have focused on the 50 states. I was using the word in the generic sense in which it is usually used meaning the government.
     

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