the brain dump version of disassociation & sin for Hank - OVERLOAD WARNING

Hey Hank

I will give it a go. I only have dail up but I can manage to get some video down and then replay it.

Good to hear from you. You have been on my mind lately.

Cheers
Milica

 

Milica,

You may also be able to find this sermon still running on a cable channel. Go to http://joelosteen.lakewood.cc/site/PageServer?pagename=JOM_broadcast and see if you can find a local or cable channel in your area that carries Joel. There are so many outlets now for his messages. You might very well find one you can watch on TV. I'm interested in your thoughts after listening to this message.

Hank

 

OK Hank I'm not sure what version of Bible this guy is quoting. If I remember correctly (it was a long time ago) you had the same idea that Faith has to be from God and not in God.

Mark 11 v22
I checked a number of Bible versions I ahve at home, my NIV, Amplified and KJV all have the wording "Have faith IN God". I have a Complete Jewish Bible, the New Testament was translated by a Messianic Jew named David H. Stern, his take on this verse is "He responded 'Have the kind of trust that comes from God'".

Mark 11v23 of my Serbian Bible (in Serbian) is translated to English to the best of my ability as "(you) Have belief (like) God's". Our verse numbers don't always align with English Translations.

So back to "Faith IN God" versus "Faith OF God".

What do you think this guy was saying that God's Faith should do for us in this Life?

I agree on some points of what this guy is saying but his application becomes personal experience.

My question is what do we do with this Faith?

I leave it there for now. It's late for me and I need to go night night.

Milica

 

I think Joel is saying that since we are all creations of God, all that we are and all that we have is of God. Therefore, any faith we possess is also of God. There are varying translations of the Bible that differ in the proper pronoun to utilize. But by the reasoning I give here, there is a valid claim that the two in question are interchangeable. In addition, the following translations of the Bible contain the reference 'of God' in the verse in question:

"And Jesus answering saith to them, 'Have faith of God; for verily I say to you, that whoever may say to this mount, Be taken up, and be cast into the sea, and may not doubt in his heart, but may believe that the things that he saith do come to pass, it shall be to him whatever he may say. Because of this I say to you, all whatever -- praying -- ye do ask, believe that ye receive, and it shall be to you." (Mark 11:22-24; Young's Literal Translation)

"And answering Jesus said to them, Have faith of God. For truly I say to you that whoever shall say to this mountain, Be moved and be cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that what he said shall occur, he shall have whatever he said. Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you shall receive them, and it will be to you." (Mark 11:22-24; Modern King James Version, © 1962-1998).


"And answering, Jesus said to them, Have faith of God. For truly I say to you, Whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and be thrown into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will happen, it will be to him, whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you will receive, and it will be to you." (Mark 11:22-24; Literal Translation of the Bible)


"And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God. Amen I say to you that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart, but be believe that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done unto him. Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when ye pray, believe that you shall receive: and they shall come unto you." (Mark 11:22-24; The Douay Rheims Bible)

"And Jesus, answering, saith unto them, "Have the faith of God." Verily I say to you, whosoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says comes to pass; he shall have it. Therefore, I say to you, all things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye received them, and ye shall have them." (Mark 11:22-23; The Worrell New Testament)

"And Jesus, answering, said to them, Have God's faith. Truly I say to you, Whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and be put into the sea; and has no doubt in his heart, but has faith that what he says will come about, he will have his desire. For this reason I say to you, Whatever you make a request for in prayer, have faith that it has been given to you, and you will have it." (The Bible In Basic English)


"He responded, "Have the kind of trust that comes from God! Yes! I tell you that whoever does not doubt in his heart but trusts that what he says will happen can say to this mountain, 'Go throw yourself into the sea!' and it will be done for him. Therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, trust that you are receiving it, and it will be yours."(The Jewish New Testament by David Stern)

My source on this is

http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/godkind1.html

Joel may have even gotten the idea for this sermon from the author of that work, Troy Edwards. I don't know.

It sounds as though you may not have heard of Joel Osteen. I suppose many folks have not. He is the pastor at the largest Christian congregation, I suppose in the world, certainly in the USA. He operates out of the Lakewood Church in Houston Texas. His church is the former Compac Center, where the Houston Rockets used to play. He is on various networks throughout the US and worldwide. I really enjoy his messages.

 

Hank

Yes I have heard of Joel Osteen You must forgive me but being an Aussie I like my own home grown pastors here and there is so much Christian stuff out there to read or watch or listen too I haven't listened to anything by him before.

We are all be creations of the Lord God after all in John chapter 1 we are told that nothing that was made had it's being without Him.

Even those who are enemies of God; "Believe".

JAS 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

I guess we can say no one not even the demons can muster up Faith on their own. I guess when you think about it God who is the Author of EVERTHING gives us all we need for life and even for Faith to have in Him. I won't argue with that.

The Bible tells us we are powerless to save ourselves. You see our condition before we recieve salvation is as Enemies of God. We actually are unable in that condition to even desire God let alone muster up the faith to believe in Him. It is the Lord Himself who gives us the Faith/Trust/Belief to be able to repent and recieve salvation.

RO 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

I'm glad you are finding Christian teaching to get some further insight into this. Will keep praying for the Lord to help you continue to find the answers you seek.

MT 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Keep in touch
Cheers
Milica

 

Milica,

Greetings across the great divide. Now that you mention it, we happened to be in your great city the night they declared the Sydney Olympics. We were awakened about 2-3:00 am to fireworks in Sydney Harbor---and the taxis and their horns! Well, that was all the sleep we got that night. Being from Atlanta, we had much to talk about with the locals during the rest of our visit- a time we will always remember. We love Australia, "the clotheslines out the back."

Thank you for your response and the verses, the first of which, I believe, is much of what Joel spoke of in his sermon.
Furtherdown in James (2:26), we find:

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Joel seems to differentiate between Man's faith and God's faith in the following way. Man's faith may tell Man the right course to take. Still, because that course might be uncomfortable, Man could easily choose not to take that course. But because God's faith is stronger, Man who possesses God's faith, the faith of God, will as a natural course take action consistent with his (and His) faith. According to James 2:26, I take it that Man's faith alone does not allow one to know God, to receive God as you put it. I would agree with that. For only by one's actions, actions consistent with God's faith does one truly demonstrate, prove if you will, faith in God, faith therefore of God. Anything less is Man's faith, a lesser animal, an animal insufficient to the task of knowing God, becoming a friend of God, receiving God and therefore transcending the status of being an enemy of God. Yes, I can agree that simply believing in God won't "win the kupie doll" (forgive, an American expression). Joel encourages us to act on the urges God places in our hearts. And for so doing, according to Joel, God will reward us, not only inthe afterlife, but in the earthly life as well. I like that. If I were God, I would set things up in a similar fashion.

Although I was decried several months ago for placing such thoughts on paper, it is inescapable that in the model we are talking about, a model in which one's actions of faith, actions geared toward fulfilling God's Will on earth, actions which thus demonstrate faith in God, and therefore are manifestations of faith of God, are actions of perfection, actions designed to perform God's Will, a Will that itself is perfect. Now I do not say that one who performs an act of God's Will is perfect, only that the act is perfect, an act in concert with God's Will. And according to Joel, actions to further God's Will on earth will be rewarded, both in this life and afterward. In this life we will never know the time or place of the reward. Still we will be rewarded. Those who perform such acts will possess God's favor in this life. That brings us back to faith healing, much the topic of the thread up to this point. According to this model, it takes the faith of God to bring about faith healing, faith that is demonstrated by action, the action that naturally results from full commitment, full faith, God's faith. That act is a perfect act because it is an act that God has ordained, that God urges Man to perform. And if Man can successfully perform that act of God's faith, God will send His rewards, in this case healing.

These are just my thoughts, no blasphemy here. I do not say that Man is perfect. I say that Man inspirde by God can perform a perfect act, an act in performance of God's Will. I mean, how could such an act be less than perfect?

Thanks very much again for your response. I learn from it.

G'day,

Hank

 

I find sometimes when discussing Bible and thoughts that in general 'we' tend to quote others (usually famous or popular) beliefs or interpetation (sp) of what the Bible says or what is suppose to mean. Now granted that is a minister's/leaders job but it is more important that we pray and ask God to reveal/make real the word. In my opinion and from observation Joel Osteen is a pastor/leader (whatever) that tends to teach of the prosperity and wealth teaching - so his interpetation of the Bible and verses...tend to be more materialistic/self gratitude...more along his style of preaching...it is his interpetation (sp)...I too prefer local home grown leaders (here in America) and shy away from those on television and tinsel -- their ministry grows in monies and fame but lacks in spritual growths and integrity - - Jesus did not die on the cross so that we would obtain wealth/earthly goods but would obtain our inheritance in Heaven - if we do obtain a huge amount of wealth we become attached to this world and Jesus and Christians are not of this world. Of most TV ministries Joel Osteen is propably one of the least offensive...this is my own personal opinion and not attacking anyone nor do I wish to get into a spiritual or religous debate. Again Joel Osteen has some good points but as Christians we must read and ask God to help us interept 'first' and then seek others opinions.

 

Hi Aladdin. I very much respect your opinions and thoughts, as I do everyone else's. And this is not a debate. It is an exchange of ideas, opinions. That's all.

I am interested to know more about what you wrote above. Considering those remarks, I am curious of your opinion regarding why God created Man to begin with. I mean, what was the point of God creating an earthly realm, one within which Man would as a natural course obtain for his use varying degrees of wealth and earthly goods, all gifts of God, and a realm within which indeed Man's comfort and enjoyment would be at least somewhat related to his use of wealth and earthly goods? I mean, regarding the meaning of all of this we wake up and live within each day, is Man's comfort and enjoyment of God's earthly realm unimportant? And regardless of the answer to that question, what could be the ultimate point of God creating Man, placing Man into the earthly realm we see before us, thereby forcing Man to survive by given instincts and guiles, only to in the end judge Man according to how well during the process of living he conformed to certain rules that in the beginning he had no sayso about? Here on earth, in a contract among men each party must agree to the terms in order for it to be enforceable. I realize that we are talking about a relationship not among men, but between men and their creator, but still, if the quality of Man's earthly existence, which in some measure certainly relates to wealth and the use of God's worldly gifts, is not a factor in the greater meaning of all this, and if the entire meaning of life does not include life itself but is what comes after it, then what indeed could be the meaning of the earthly existence? Why not just get right to the afterlife? Why go through all this in the first place just to see where you go later on? I do not mean to portray that Man's use of God's gifts, some of which could be considered wealth or earthly goods, is itself the final meaning of life, but are we to believe that these gifts from God unimportant at all? I mean, everything we have and might ever have is a gift of God, so how can we in good conscience minimize the importance of them? And if they are important for whatever reason, then why should Man not embrace them while on earth, make the best use of them? I think may be the standpoint from which Joel views things. This is not right or wrong. This is just open discussion. I can't help but be curious about these things.

You are a kind lady, one whom I respect a great deal.

Hank

 

Hank

Your questions about "Why did God create mankind and this world?", "Why didn't God just have mankind with Him in Heaven like the Angels when he created us?"  are very good questions.  If I could answer them I would.  Why do we have to go through an Earthly existence before our eternal life after human death begins.  Only God can tell you that as He didn't give us the answer to those questions in His Word.

What we do know from the Bible is that God designed us to have eternal life and He desired for us to be in relationship with Him.  There are rules however, you can only spend eternity in relationship with the Lord based on these rules or laws. 


I know that we take nothing from this Earth with us into the next. 

What we do and accumulate (for ourselves or materialistically)  on this Earth is not the point of our purpose here on Earth.  Things are only required to meet our needs and desires while we are here on Earth.  Jesus collected nothing while He was here.  Jesus lived the perfect life on this Earth.  What did Jesus make His priority on this Earth?  That is what you should look at. The relationship between Jesus and God.

There is so much more I could add to this but I'll leave it there for now.

Milica

 

Hank - I get confused honestly when I ask myself why we/man was created? I too ask why not just create angelic beings and live with Jesus/God? surely it would be a lot less heart ache for God...than to create human beings full of emotions and problems...sin. But I remind myself that 'we are not to rely upon our own understanding...to believe as a child...too much knowledge increases sorrows...and that all things work toward the good of God' -

In my opinion the more educated and intelligent a person is the more we try to use the brain to figure out Jesus and God...I mean that in the most respectful way.

God wants us to use our heart more than our brain. My heart tells my brain to shut up because their are times when my brain kicks into high gear and tries to rationalize the existance of man and God. It actually causes me grief...when I let my heart do the thinking I find peace and even though I don't understands the 'why'? I just accepted that God is in control. I believe that Jesus/God knows every hair on our head and that none of us are a mistake. (know having said that I've had to learn to accept God and his wisdom...even though I don't understand why my mother is not alive and why the man ho murdered her is still alive in prison). But God did not murder my mother this man did. I too have many questions but I give them to God and wait for his explination. Sometimes it comes in a Bible verse sometimes it comes in more subtle ways. The smile of a child, a breeze, a flower, a bird, a peaceful feeling in my heart. Sometimes it comes to just wait and trust.

I pray you find answers and if JOel can give some great...you are wise enough to know the difference between knowledge/wisdom and ministries that just try to incur more revenues.

Remember God sent the son-Jesus-and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit - we can believe in God and confess to be a Christian...but if our life is not fully in accordance with God' will - the HOly Spirit who lives inside us can become hurt and quiet - thus we lose our peace...

I'm sorry I can not write any more...the vertigo is not nice today

hugs/prayers
xo

 

Milica, I makes sense to me that all of God's gifts are sacred, are perfect, and therefore none is more sacred or perfect than any other. It must be that way, for God is perfect. Gifts of a perfect God must be perfect as well. There can be no degrees of perfection. For that reason, life on earth, one of God's perfect gifts, must have value equal to God's gift of afterlife, another perfect gift. Earthly existence is in God's perfect scheme just as is the afterlife existence. So if Man is to embrace the afterlife and all that goes with it as a perfect gift from God, how can Man not also embrace earthly life and all that goes with it and embrace it with the same level intensity? As they say, "It's all good." It is difficult for me to accept the notion that the only reason for this life is to get to the next. There must be reason beyond that or this life is largely in vane, something to struggle through simply for the purpose of deriving God's favor, and that in order to enter the afterlife. I mean, we did not ask to be here. We did not ask for this. None of us agreed to this life as merely a test for the next.

The Bible is ripe with passages indication that God will bless Man in this life with earthly wealth and riches, in exchange for Man doing God's Will on Earth. So there is a covenant there, an agreement of sorts. Man agrees to perform God's Will and in exchange God grants Man favor, divine Providence. And for God's Providence, Man should be humble, repent of his sins and remain thankful. That model seems quite reasonable. Why should Man not accept that relationship, a divine one, one created by God for God's own purposes, for what it is, an example of God's perfection? Why should Man devalue or even in some cases disdain earthly materials when those materials are in keeping with God's covenant with Man?

The American founding fathers held to the precept that God would bless their new nation in exchange for their nation's services to secure God's endowment of equal rights to Mankind. (See the American Declaration of Independence, last paragrapgh) Doing so would perform God's Will on earth. With a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, each signer of the Declaration of Independence pledged his life, his earthly fortune and his sacred honor. They made a covenant with God to do God's Will in exchange for God's blessings and Providence. America has trully been blessed ever since. All this and much more makes me believe that this life is much more important than to be merely a stepping stone to the next. I have every reason to believe that God enjoys this life through us. God suffers through us. God rejoices through us. In essence, God lives through us. God without Man, without a universe, would be an awfully lonely existence. Man without God would be a horrific existence. Each in its own way needs the other, are reflections of the other. God without Man would have very little purpose. God? God over what? Nothing? If God is God over nothing, then God is not God. So yes, it seems reasonable to consider that God and Man have a sort of symbiotic relationship, at least to some degree.

Thanks for making me think.

Hank

 

Many prayers for you today Aladdin. May God incline your heart to seek and find the cure for your discomfort.

Hank

 

Hey Aladdin,

Was so good to read your post, you have the knack (with me anyway). Just wanted you to know that your words always give me comfort, even when I can't find answers........Thank you. Cara

 

Hank

Can I ask you to clarify something for me? I've been re-reading this post as I've wanted to respond to it. I think I may be understanding you incorrectly, so sorry if I have. Do you mean by the comment in RED that mankind has "no Will" of his own and that he is compelled to do whatever God desires regardless? That is we can't make a choice or choices at all!

Personally I believe in God's Sovereign Will but my stand is that man has a choice in what he believes and chooses to do (within God's Soverreign Will). However, I await your clarification before I go further.

You have certainly challenged my mind; which is a good thing (I think). ;D

Milica

 

No, I do not mean to say that Man does not have free will, very much the opposite in fact. What I am saying is that many times performing God's Will, or what we perceive in our deepest sense of truth to be God's Will, is not the easiest route to pursue, at least until we are practiced at it, which is the point of the Christian religions, to encourage folks to practice their faith. It does take practice. Each moment of every day we are making decisions. One reason that it is impossible for Man to be perfect is that life requires Man to make decisions during every making moment. There are just too many decisions to make! So even if someone is practiced, he or she is bound to make a clinker decision every now and then, regardless of his or her best intentions.

Joel's point last week was to urge Man to act on God's faith, the 'faith of God' rather than the faith of Man. God's faith is stronger than Man's, God's faith is more righteous than Man's. Therefore, God's faith takes more gumption. To make decisions according to God's faith takes strength of conviction. To make these decisions Man must go in to manual override and go against his own personal preferances to do the easy thing. Many times these decisions require leaps of faith. These decisions require Man to do what God would have Man to do, regardless of what Man would prefer to do instead. That is the battlefront. Each moment of every day Man decides whether to do what he wants to do or what he believes God wants him to do. If Man can successfully determine God's Will and execute it on earth, then according to various interpretations of the Bible, one of which is Joel's, another of which was that of the American founding fathers, Man will receive the divine Providence. That's a pretty simplified version of this. It can get more complicated for sure. For example, executing God's Will in this generation can reap rewards for the next generation. Just like the sins of the father are visited upon the son, so are the father's good works as well. Each generation stands on the shoulders of the previous generations. So there are layers to this interpretation. And then there is also the dark side of divine Providence. Regarding the dark side of Providence, you may be intersted to read Abraham Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address. Look it up on the web and take a half hour to absorb it (don't read it, absorb it). Lincoln gave this address after almost 4 years of Civil War, a war fought over whether slavery should extend into the settling territores in the west. Using the Bible, Lincoln 'supposes' that the war presently being fought was the 'Woe' sent by God to both the northern and the southern states, meant to punish these states for complicity against His Will that all men should be free. I think you will find it not only interesting, but phenomenal piece of prose.

Maybe that helps to clarify the point. Thanks for following up. I think we are on the same page here.

Hank

 

thank you sweet Cara - your kindness is a joy - I'm not as eloquent as I once was but I do write from the heart

hugs/prayers
xoxo

 

Hank

Thanks for that reply to my question. I'm now in the picture. Yes I agree with you but if I were to explain this to someone I would phrase it differently. My problem is I'm not so good at communicating what I've understood for myself from either my reading of the Bible or someone's sermon so please ask me to clarify anything that doesn't make sense to you.

You use the phrase of "God's faith being greater than man's." I would say that God is Holy (or Sinless) and unable to do wrong (DT 32:4), that is why He as Jesus on this Earth was able to live in complete Obedience a perfect sinless life (HEB 4:14,15).

The rest of us are born unable to be Holy and totally unable to do right {ROM 3:23 & 1JN 1:8}that is we are born as sinners. The Bible tells us we are enemies of God until we are reconciled to Him through repentance and redemption (ROM 5:6-8). Repentance is our will to recognise our sinfulness and rebellion against God, and Redemption is the payment for our sins by the Perfect lamb of God, Jesus Christ, who shed His blood on the Cross to obtain forgiveness for our sins and to cleanse us from our unrighteousness.

OK that established. When we are reconcilied with God we then respond with living godly lives. [This is were I agree with you about requiring God's Faith] Although saved we still deal with our sinful nature and as such it is hard for us to obey God to do what is right. I am refering now to the other 3 sentences I underlined in your answwer to me below. Our own desire, will and ability to be holy and not sin unfortunately is not strong enough. Yes I agree we need God's help. In the book of 2 Peter it says the following:-

2PE 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

We need God's divine power to back us up in our effort to not sin. This is also shown to us through what the Apostle Paul tells us about the sinful nature in the book of Romans:-

RO 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!

The power of God to enable us to participate in the divine nature is the work of Jesus on the Cross. It is through what Jesus did for us that we are able to have victory over sin & death in our lives. Our Faith is in what Jesus did for us on the Cross and what God is like (ie His the character). If we doubt this we are unable to overcome sin but if we believe it and trust God's promises we overcome the corruption of this world caused by evil desires. So as out Faith grows the evil and corruption of this world has less and less an influence in what we think (our thought life), and how we speak or act. Instead we are made free to live godly lives as Jesus did.

RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

RO 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

RO 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Well I hope what I've written above is clear and explains to you how I see it. Please feel free to ask me questions. I hope I can explain it to you better if it didn't make sense.

Cheers
Milica

 

Thanks for gathering the verses you posted. They are very helpful. Your work in finding these verses, I believe help to substantiate Joel's remarks, and perhaps a few of mine that have been dropped earlier in this thead earlier. Here's one of the verses that strikes a chord with me:

"2PE 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness."

Notice that the verse does not refer to 'faith.' It refers instead to 'knowledge.' If you look back through some of what I wrote a few months back, you will find discussions pertaining to faith, in its Biblical sense, as being stronger than merely belief. When one has faith, true faith, in the sense that the Bible connotes, one actually possesses personal knowledge of the truth, in this case, personal knowledge of the truth of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. By 'knowledge' I mean knowledge just like you would think of any fact you know to be true, that tomorrow the sun will come up; that 2+2=4, knowledge. Knowledge is important here because Man's instincts require him to act consistent with what he knows to be true. If he knows that an iron is hot, he will not touch it. If he knows that goodness is around the corner, he will proceed to the corner and turn toward the goodness. But if Man only suspects, or hopes that goodness is around the corner, he may not expend the energy it takes to arrive at the corner to see. Do you see what I mean here? When Joel speaks of God's faith, in reality he speaks of God's knowledge. If we are given a tidbit of God's knowledge, in other words, if we are inspired to believe so strongly that something is true that it becomes personal knowledge to us, we will act in accordance with that knowledge, that truth, in this case, the truth of the Holy Trinity. That becomes our mindset. Our faith is tested daily, hourly. If we can keep our faith, our knowledge of the truth of God, that knowledge will guide our worldly actions. And by actions, as we have uncovered a few posts ago, we prove our faith in God and to God. By our actions, actions predicated by our personal knowledge pf the truth of God, we know God, we become friends of God, no longer, as you said, enemies of God. That, I believe, is the idea that Joel tries to get across. Perhaps it is too deep to convey to a 20,000 person audience, and millions on TV. I don't know. But that is what I believe he is saying. And you, dear Milica, just by chance (???) and without even trying, uncovered the precise verses that back that up. Funny how we sort of stumble across things. Sometimes its almost like an angel is guiding the whirlwind, isn't it?

If I do not post over teh weekend it is because we will be out of town.

Thank you so much for helping to extract these ideas. Only by doing so can we really know who we are.

Hank

 

No probs Hank,

The 2 Peter scripture was from our Church reading last Sunday. I didn't have to look it up, it was fresh in my mind. Interesting that I would have paid close attention those particular verses which is why I could quote them. The Romans verses were also recent because we are studying the book of Romans at Ladies Bible study at the moment. So it's neat how they all fitted together in my answer to you. I'm sure it isn't just a coincidence. God is more in control than what we give Him credit for.

Hope you enjoy your weekend trip.

Cheers
Milica

 

Yes, there are no coincidences.