the brain dump version of disassociation & sin for Hank - OVERLOAD WARNING

It all boils down to this:

Jesus is God. I am not.

This is the most liberating revelation one can have but in order to believe, one must humble oneself to the realization that one is a sinner and needs a Savior.

Tess and Seeker: Your posts have made me full of joy in the Lord.

 

BTW, Seeker, my name really is Hank; so you do not have to put it in quotes.

The reason I keep dwelling on the verses I do is that those verses seem to be the ones that stretch Man's abilities to the limit. These verses describe the most extreme case. The verses I cite in Genesis and those quoting Jesus regard the outer possibilities of Man. It seems important that once we can determine what those possibilities really are, then we can fully understand our true relationship to God, to Jesus, to the Holy Spirit, and in so doing foster our faith in the same. That is why this is important.

According to your most recent post you and I can agree, at least for the sake of argument, that what Genesis relates could be true in its utmost sense; that Man could indeed be a reproduction of God, placed within God's chosen space-time continuum. So for the sake of argument, can we not also agree that Jesus was literally correct when he divulged that Man who owns true faith can move mountains simply by willing them to move, becoming for all intents and purposes, a creature that is quite similar to God's image, as Genesis insists? And can we not also agree for that same sake of argument that Jesus was correct in the utmost sense when He told us that Man's faith alone can indeed perform healing, once again finding consistency with Genesis? And lastly, can we not also agree, at least for argument’s sake, that what Jesus urged Man to do, what Jesus even instructed Man regarding how to do, is attainable; that Man can in some way shape or form become what Jesus called, “perfect,” if only for the smallest duration? (Please do not misunderstand; here I do not suggest that Man is perfect, only capable of being so, a goal Jesus plainly urged Man to pursue.) With those principles agreed for the sake of argument, does anything on which we have agreed preclude the virgin birth? No, they do not. Does anything on which we have agreed change the relationship of Man to Jesus? To God? To the Holy Spirit? No, they do not. Is Man still subordinate to God? You bet. Is Jesus still another animal as you say? Absolutely. What changes is not the relationship of Man to God. What changes is Man’s nature within that relationship. What’s more, these passages interpretted literally remain consistent with one another. To be sure, truth is consistent; falsehood is not. So if Man with faith is truly capable of what Jesus claimed and urged; if Genesis literally reveals the true relationship of Man to God, nothing changes regarding Man’s relationship to Jesus or God or the Holy Spirit.

But now let's look at the converse. If traditional Christian doctrine turns out to be true, then the truth of that doctrine would overrule any meaning one could derive from a plain literal reading of Genesis or a plain literal reading of these teachings of Jesus. Traditional Christian doctrine, which incidentally requires that other passages such as the accounts of Adam and Eve be interpreted literally, will not allow for a plain literal interpretation of these passages. So that being the case, what if it turns out that the passages to which I refer are literally true to their text? What if these passages actually mean what they plainly indicate? If these passages are true to the extent that I postulate, then faith in any other doctrine, traditional Christian or otherwise, would be faith in a falsehood. We cannot entertain that Jesus would have urged Man to possess faith in falsehood. Jesus urged Man to have faith in the truth of God, the truth of the Holy Trinity. And in so doing, Man would possess eternal life, just as I might add God possesses, again, another similarity between Man and God consistent with Genesis. Jesus taught that when Man knows the truth of God, when Man possesses faith in the truth of God, as a consequence Man will become immortal, as is God. Can we not see a pattern here? God can do anything. God is immortal. According to Jesus, Man with true faith can do anything. Man with true faith is immortal. According to Genesis, Man is created in God’s image. Jesus’ quotations support Genesis. So if all this is true, and to be sure all this comes directly from the Bible, then really, what would be the difference between Man owning true faith and God? I'm just asking the question here. So far, I have seen nothing that precludes this model from being exactly what the Bible means to convey. It is consistent across the board. Furthermore, this model is consistent with all that you have indicated should be true respecting the Holy Trinity. But at the same time, traditional Christian doctrine precludes these passages from meaning exactly what they say. How can we explain that the traditional Christian doctrine to which I refer can maintain consistency only if it chooses to alter the meaning of these plainly stated verses?

Hank

 

Kim.....thank you for bringing this back to the basic foundation of what Christianity is. It's not rocket science, or a complicated philosophy in order to accept. That simple truth is all that is required to have "faith" through Christ.

I hope everyone has a blessed day!
Tess

 

Tess (and Kim)

Actually, Tess, nothing I have submitted for consideration here denies what Kim wrote when she posted:

"Jesus is God. I am not.
This is the most liberating revelation one can have but in order to believe, one must humble oneself to the realization that one is a sinner and needs a Savior."

If you truly understand what I attempt woefully to convey, you will understand that I am in agreement with Kim. Whether she agrees with me...well, that's another story. Here's why I say that what I have submitted here is in keeping with Kim's post. I'll break it into parts:

1) Jesus is God. I am not.

What Jesus indicated is that same idea, but also more. According to Jesus, once "I" have what He termed "Faith," then do "I" become immortal; then do "I" become powerful enough to move mountains; therefore then do "I" become "perfect" and then do "I" become God-like, or perhaps, if I might, even one with God, as was/is Jesus. "I" without faith am just another imperfect sinner, one subject to God's laws and judgement. "I" without faith am the reason God conveyed laws in the first place, to govern imperfect sinners. After all, if "I" have faith, and if everyone else does as well, why would we need any laws? Folks who all have true faith in God, faith in the scriptures and therefore faith in the golden rule, would need no laws by which to be governed. They would govern themselves. Self-government, BTW, is precisely the idea behind the American revolution. The American founders believed whole-heartedly in the concept of faith in God and God's rewarding gift of self-government to mankind.

The difference I note between what I submit as a viable interpretation to these scriptures and what Kim in my opinion meant is that Kim's statement does not entertain the idea that "I" can achieve what Jesus urged "I" to achieve. In other words, Kim's assumption of Man is that he can achieve the state of nothing more than strong belief in the scriptures. What Jesus termed, "faith," is unachieveable. For this reason, Man can never be rewarded with the extraordinary powers and immortality that Jesus claimed he would simply by virtue of Man's "faith."

So here's the difference, IMO Kim's statement does not allow that what Jesus urged Man to do is possible, that is, to achieve a state of what Jesus termed, "faith." She may be right. Faith may indeed be left only for God. Man may be relegated to owning mere strong belief, and for that reason must rely on God's grace to achieve immortality.

Regarding Kim's post,

"This is the most liberating revelation one can have but in order to believe, one must humble oneself to the realization that one is a sinner and needs a Savior."

I believe that is an accurate description of what the Bible means. Sinners need a Savior. I can understand that. According to Jesus, however, one who already posseses true faith, would be beyond sinning. One who has true faith would have no reason to sin. It would not occur to one who has true faith to conduct a sinful act. One who has true faith is all-powerful and immortal already and would have no reason to sin. The question here is whether that is attainable. I am told here that the answer is no. Still, it is an interesting question, one with many avenues to travel down.

I believe that most folks who are asked if they have faith in the Holy Trinity and answer in the affirmative, really do not understand the question, or its terms. By answering in the affirmative, what they really mean to say is that they possess belief, perhaps even strong belief in the same. However, if they truly possessed faith in the meaning that Jesus held, the question would never have had to asked in the first place. And if it were, there would be no reason to answer with mere words.

Thanks for the posts you two and I hope you both have a great day!

Hank

 

No, Hank, "we" do not agree that:

1. A man with any level of faith, true or otherwise, can move mountains simply by willing them to move (see previous posts).

2. Because a man who owns true faith can move mountains, he becomes for all intents and purposes a creature quite similar to God's image (see previous posts)

3. Jesus told us that man's faith alone can perform healing (see previous posts).

The only thing I did agree to is the possibility, not fact, that man could have been made in God's complete image. However, even if true, by your own arguement (and we're repeating here), man cannot fully exercise whatever level of power given because we are inside of the time-space continuum (creation). We are separated. We are not part of the Trinity. We are separated.

Do any of these passages preclude the virgin birth? No. Preclusion is not the issue. Do any of your interpretations of these passages negate the meaning of the virgin birth? Yes, because they ignore the significance of the fact that "Jesus is God and I am not" as "Titus" so simply and eloquently stated. They ignore the depth and significance of man's separation. They ignore the fact that man may not be created in God's complete image. They ignore the fact that Jesus came to earth to reunite man with God through the concept of salvation, not reunite man with God by believing that man has a latent ability to perform miracles (see previous posts).

Do the passages change the relationships of man to Jesus, to God, and to the Holy Spirit? No. Do your interpretations of the passages change these relationships? Yes. See paragraph above.

You seem desperate to achieve momentary perfection through one ultimate, selfless act. I was unable to find any reference to this in the Bible for two reasons. Reason one is that it is sort of like saying you can cause cancer by tying your shoelaces. It implies you can achieve a cancerous state through a single act and is based on a humanly created concept that has no basis (there is no data to support your theory of momentary perfection through a selfless act and none has been given). Reason two for not finding reference to this in the Bible, which is what you want, is because achieving perfection through an act or works is opposed to the basic Biblical prinicples of mercy and perfection only through salvation and grace.

However, Christ does point the way to a more lasting perfection without an ultimate, life-surrendering selfless act in Matthew 19:21 (NIV): Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasures in heaven. Then come and follow me." He doesn't insure it, but it seems as though He is pointing to this as the direction toward perfection, if attainable, which He implies it is according to your logic. He is giving you instruction, even more directly than the scripture you quote.

This is your chance to prove your concept of ultimate faith turning "Man" into "God". Cut the rope (according to your analogy). Sell your McMansion, your cars, your big screen TV, your golf clubs and boat, your computer. Cancel your cable TV, cell phone contracts, and wellness center memberships, as well as the kids' tuition and your wife's hair appointments. Give the proceeds to the poor and go follow Jesus in entirety and ultimate faith. If you TRULY do what Jesus says and TRULY follow Him and all that, that implies, you will at least:

1. Study and apply the entire Bible completely, contextually, and continually

2. Understand your separated state and your perfection and salvation only through Christ's sacrifice and intercession (see scriptures below)

3. Implement the two greatest commandments and all of the commandments and direction of the Bible

Because you will love the Lord, your God, with all of your heart, your soul, and your mind, you will want to be in His Word daily and pray unceasingly, as well as constantly be open to and implement His will.

You will then have your perfection through Christ and a peace that surpasses all understanding.

You will spread the (whole) Word of God and to that purpose maybe even perform a few miracles that glorify the Lord, if it is His Will (see previous posts - I'm not an advocate of repeating concepts).

Let us know how you do and if you are able to achieve perfection and perform miracles through the ultimate faith you will be able to achieve. This sounds a little flippant, and it is a little, but it is not as well. Based on your insatiable desire for perfection, you are the best person to pursue perfection as the Bible teaches it. Keep us posted. A blog would be perfect.

Always in His Name.


In the meantime, here are some more verses that deal with perfection and knowledge and provide a more well-rounded view for all.

Perfection:
2 Corinthians 7:1
Hebrews 12: 2
Colossians 1: 28
Hebrews 2: 10
Hebrews 10: 1-10
Hebrews 10: 14
Hebrews 7: 11

Knowledge and the bigger picture:
Romans 10: 2
I Corinthians 13: 2
Ephesians 3: 17-19
Romans 10: 6-13
I Corinthians 8: 1-3
Romans 11: 33-36
Colossians 1: 9-14
Colossians 2: 2-5
1 Timothy 2: 3-7
1 Timothy 6: 20-24
2 Peter 1: 5-9

 

Seeker,

What I said was that "you and I can agree, at least for the sake of argument." I said that because you admitted the possibility that the argument was viable based on the Bible actually said. I did not say that you agreed, only that you agreed to the possibility and therefore I said that you agreed for the sake of argument. I then made that argument. I therefore believe I am correct to have written what I did.

So here I take it that you denounce any agreement to the following:

1. A man with any level of faith, true or otherwise, can move mountains simply by willing them to move (see previous posts).

2. Because a man who owns true faith can move mountains, he becomes for all intents and purposes a creature quite similar to God's image (see previous posts)

3. Jesus told us that man's faith alone can perform healing (see previous posts).

Well, what I relate is just what the Bible says, nothing more. You do not agree with what the Bible says; I understand that and that's OK. Still, what I relate is what it says. Because we can agree to disagree, and because you seem to be getting a little irritated here, I think it would be good to just stop here, if that is agreable. My intent is not to perfect myself; I have too far to go to begin that process. My intent is not to irritate anyone. My intent is to discover what these passages really mean, nothing more.

Thanks for your participation here. It has been much appreciated.

Hank

 

Hank.....I totally agree. It's time to stop. You have speculated, postulated, analyzed and interpreted scripture through your own ideology. You have completely misunderstood Seekers point when she says she does not agree with you. Once again, you have concluded that you are right and other's are not. While this topic has remained civil, it is not at all appropriate to take your spin on scripture and tell another that they don't believe in the bible because they don't accept your interpretation.

Yes....it's time to stop this merry go round. As always....may God be with you in your spiritual journey.

 

Hank
You are in my prayers. I keep asking the Lord to help you find the answers you are seeking. As Jesus said in Matthew.

MT 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Don't give up. The Lord will keep His promise to help you find Him & His truth.

Milica

 

Tess,
Here’s what Seeker wrote:

No, Hank, "we" do not agree that:

1. A man with any level of faith, true or otherwise, can move mountains simply by willing them to move.

Yet according to the Bible:

Matthew 19-21 (King James Version)
20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Luke 17:4-6 (King James Version)
5And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Tess, you say that I have, “speculated, postulated, analyzed and interpreted scripture through your own ideology.” But really dear, I’m the only one who is not doing that. I’m the only one here taking the Bible for what it says plainly. This is no personal ideology; this is what the Bible says. In this case, Seeker has plainly indicated that she does not agree with what the Bible states plainly. Perhaps Seeker believes that the truth Jesus chose to reveal is shrouded in symbolism and that Jesus’ words cannot be construed literally. I don’t know. But clearly, Jesus was not speaking in parable here. He was speaking plainly. I am simply trying to tie all this together in some form or fashion that makes sense within itself.

Regarding the power of faith to heal, Seeker does not agree that

3. Jesus told us that man's faith alone can perform healing.

With respect to a healing, Jesus told a healed subject:

“Thy faith hath made thee whole.”
[Matt. 9:22, Mark 5:34, Mark 10:52, Luke 8:48]

Matthew 9:28-30 (King James Version)
28And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
30And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.


This is what Jesus said. I have to take that for face value. Who am I to make something out of this that is not on the face? Yet, you say that I am doing just that.

Now, to Seeker’s point, I do not disagree that Man’s faith “alone” can perform healing. Of course there is some mechanism in place that allows faith healing to occur when it does. The issue before us is whether Man has any control over the tripping of the lever that actuates faith healing. I take it from Jesus that Man does have a degree of control. I take it that Seeker believes that control is idiopathic or is solely to the discretion of God and that God will make individual determinations regarding each case of faith healing. This goes back to the definition of faith. Jesus tells me that one either has faith or one does not. Jesus tells me that faith is a “1” or a “0;” that there are no degrees of faith; that any doubt at all erases all faith and that the degree of doubt supplements the degree of belief to the whole extent. I understand that we might disagree here; but really, why would this raise ire, either on your part or Seekers. I respect your opinions. I do not say that you have, “speculated, postulated, analyzed and interpreted scripture through your own ideology.” These are two different views of the same thing. Both are valid with respect to our good faith understandings of what the Bible says. I am not bitter. I am not disrespectful. I am quite the contrary.

You say that I’m doing this in order to be right. Well, I don’t disagree that I would like to be correct on most anything that I undertake. In this world, being correct is somewhat important. But I believe we are all that way, are we not? Do you not think that you are right? I would hope so. I wouldn’t want to undertake a discussion with anyone who does not at least work toward being right. But whether I am right, I cannot say. Nor can you. Nor can Seeker. Nor can I of you.

Finally, you say that it is not appropriate that I tell another that they do not believe in the Bible. Tess, really, I did not say that Seeker does not believe in the Bible. What I said is that Seeker plainly disagrees with what the Bible says in the passages I cite. Seeker plainly takes another meaning from those passages than a plain reading would give. Seeker clearly believes in the meaning she derives; therefore Seeker believes in the Bible, as she knows the Bible to be.

Again, another beautiful day here. I hope you have one wherever you are.

Hank

 

Hi Milica,

I believe that in every fiber of my being.

Thanks for that message.

Hank

 

Hank....first of all, we don't know each other well enough for you to address me as "dear".

My contention with this topic is that it is not focused. As I mentioned, this thread has wandered all over the place and left nothing but confusion which in my mind is not of God's will. We mentioned this way back in the earliest posts that what is going on here is not essential to having a spiritual relationship with God. Theological debates have been going on for centuries and we're no exception.....and to what end? Kim said it best with her very simple statement.....and that is the bottom line here. Everything else is a lesson, a model, a parable to gain that means. Verbose and complicated postulating of what scripture says is a form of distortion.

You have spoken fragments of truth, but added your own spin of "space and time continuims", God transfering healing powers to man to use as he may(not man allowing God to work through him), the postulating that man can become perfect while on earth and even speculating that Christ was on a learning curve as a child. Frankly, to me that is all gobbledy gook! Nothing in scripture talks about any of that, nor does it advance the purity of the word of God. Interpreting scripture alone is complicated enough without all these lofty empty theories.

My suggestion is to let this go at this point. If you wish to continue an exchange of ideas, it might be better served to start a NEW thread, pick ONE aspect of Christian belief and discuss it at face value and within the confines of scriptural content. I personally have nothing more to add to this particular thread because it seems we are beating a dead horse, and it's now digressing into personal comments that are less than complimentary or flat out offensive.

I also echo what Milica has said. Peace to you.

 

Hank

Momentary frustration is more appropriate. Others and I have spent countless hours to provide numerous arguements and addendums to your theories and to quote dozens of applicable scripture because that is what you said you wanted. What we have gotten in return is "uh huh, uh huh, uh huh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like I was saying..." It is frustrating. Think of my post as an e-shake to say, "Listen to what we are saying. It is what you said you wanted."

Regarding what the Bible says, the Bible does NOT say man can move mountains at his will. Here is what it says (Mark 11: 22-25-NIV): "Have faith in God," Jesus answered. "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe you have received it, and it will be yours." Also, we will discuss faith healing as it applies to man in the next paragraphs (it is a repeat of a previous post), but the indication in the Bible is that God performs miracles through man as a way to spread the Word and glorify the Lord. So, no, the Bible does not say that man can move mountains at his will, and therefore, I cannot agree with it.

The Bible does NOT say that because "a man can move a mountain (which the Bible says clearly above that it is God moving the mountain for man), he is quite similar to God's image. It says in Genesis 1: 26-27 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness... So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female he created them". That is all it says about man being created in God's image. That is all that it says. This is not seeker saying this. This is the Bible saying this so, come on, now, repeat after me. That is all it says. We don't know to what extent He created man in His image. We do not know that man is quite similar to God's image. The Bible does NOT say that. In fact, the more I look at the Mark 11 scripture, it says the opposite because we have to ask God to move the mountain for us. Well, either way, because the Bible does not say it, I cannot agree that a man can move a mountain nor that he is quite similar to God.

The Bible does NOT say 'that Jesus said that man's faith alone can perform healing.' Christ said, "it will be done for him (man). Whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." This clearly refers to the involvement of God in fulfilling man's request. Also, you cannot quote as you did in your response to Tess what Christ says as He (Christ) is healing a man and apply it to a man healing a man. Christ was saying "Through your faith (in me) (we've already hashed this out-people came to be healed by Jesus not each other or themselves) has made you well (They asked God believing they would receive). Man cannot say that when healing another man (believe in me). Both have to believe that God will perform the miracle through the man trying to heal and it has to either glorify the Lord or spread the Word (below). The Bible does NOT say that man's faith alone can peform healing. So I cannot agree.

So, Hank, you can say that a person doesn't agree with the Bible because they don't agree with what you interpret from the Bible, but you're better off quoting the Bible instead. Also, your opinion of what I believe and what I agree with and all is just that, your opinion. I don't take it for anything more than it is. I'm sure others don't either.

In further support of my thoughts regarding the fallacy of man's faith alone and man can creating miracles 'at his will' and the randomness and idiopathic nature of miracles, I refer to the following scriptures. You must have missed my post where I said that I do not believe in the randomness of miracles at all, but do believe in the scriptures that state that miracles performed by God through men are done so to further the Word and glorify the Lord (no offense, but please pay more attention before you post what I believe).

Matthew 10: 7-8 - As you go, preach the message: "The kingdom of heaven in near.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons."

Matthew 11: 4-6 - Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are rasied, and the good news is preached to the poor. Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me."

Luke 4: 36-37 - All the people were amazed and said to each other, "What is this teaching? With authority and power he gives orders to evil spirits and they come out!" And the news about Him spread throughout the surrounding area.

Luke 9: 1-2 - When Jesus had called the Twelve together, He gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

Luke 10: 9 - Heal the sick who are there and tell them, "The kingdom of God is near you."

John 20:30-31 - Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 10:25 - Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me."

John 11: 38-42 - Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. "Take away the stone," He said. "But, Lord," said Martha, the sister of the dead man, "By this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days." Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?" So they took way the stone, Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me (Please note here that Christ was asking God who performed the miracle through Christ). I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit for the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."

John 11: 11-14 - Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

Matthew 11:23 - And you Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you willl go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

Look, Hank, your premise is not all that bad on the surface which is why it is so believable to you. Through God and Christ, man can do things that seem impossible. I have many times said that miracles are much more available to us than we realize. Notwithstanding your huge leaps in interpretation that imply things that the Bible and others clearly do not say, it is not just the things that you include in your theories, but the things you don't include because they don't say what you want and because they make this equation so much harder.

My analogy of cancer was a bad one. What is happening is more like you leafing through the Betty Crocker recipe book and coming back with the idea that in order to bake a cake all you need are an egg (man achieving perfection through a single, selfless act) and baking soda (man's faith he can will whatever he wants). Then asking others for help.

In this analogy, others have come along and at your request studied the recipes for cake in the Betty Crocker book and have come back with the following: "Well, sort of. But you really need two eggs (perfection through Christ's salvation, not a human act) and baking powder instead of baking soda (God performing miracles through man as a way to spread the Word and glorify God instead of at man's will). PLUS! You also need flour (prayer to God), water (following Christ in all aspects), oil (reading and applying the complete messages in the Bible contextually), and flavoring (the love for God and one another that will drive you to do all of the other things)."

Then, in the analogy, you come back and say, "uh huh, uh huh. Well you don't understand the recipe. I believe that I can bake a cake with one egg and baking soda. And you obviously don't agree with what the recipe book says or you would too."

Okay.

Each of us has to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Phillipians 2:12) Also, we can only present the complete Word of God (the whole recipe to live a Godly life and perform miracles). It is the role of the Holy Spirit to convict you.

Regarding selling all of your possessions and all of that. I made that sound personal because what Christ asks us to do is VERY personal and VERY hard. While Christ did say "Be perfect" and "If you want to be perfect...", He knew it would be almost impossible for us to do so. It is very, very hard to love the person who is suing you for your dog peeing on his lawn or to love the person who murdered your son or could have prevented you from dying from cancer if he had been more alert and doing his job better when the lump was small enough to excise. (By the way, the "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" scripture you quote freely out of context is within this context of love your enemies which circles back to the other scripture you quote out of context regarding moving the mountain. The next line after the ones I quoted is "And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." So in order to be perfect like your heavenly Father, you not only have to sell all of your possessions and follow Christ, but you have to totally forgive the person who killed your wife because he was driving drunk or raped and disfigured your daughter or killed your son in Iraq for the jihad.) It is very, very hard for us to do these things, so we balk. We look for a way to exit the thread once the stakes are raised to this level. This is much harder than believing we can perform miracles at our will. We can't make the whole cake. We can't cut the rope. It's okay. None of us can. That is why God gave us mercy and grace through salvation and our faith in Him. That is why we need to look at the whole Word of God. It is also why we need to be thoroughly connected to God and Christ in all ways and do what they have told us to do, like: daily prayer, daily scripture reading, fellowship to build each other up in the faith, service to others to extend God's love, preaching the Word, worship and others.

Hank, there is nothing more that I can say that I haven't already said at least twice. Go in peace. Work on your own salvation with fear and trembling. Lean not on your own understanding.

To all, God bless you. I pray for all of you.

Always in His precious Name.

 

Hank,

Never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit to reveal what God needs each of us to understand. If I were to analyze each line of the bible in isolation, then tried to put them together with my own intellect, I would end up frustrated (as I have in the past). Yet, when I accept that His ways are higher (and will always be higher) than my ways, the Spirit of the Lord leads me to the truth that I need to accomplish His will for me. I'm still a "baby Christian". Sometimes I run out way ahead; sometimes I don't listen to my Heavenly Father; sometimes I listen but second guess.

But I know in my heart, God has a plan for each of us and He will provide us with everything we need to give Him glory. Because that's what it's all about.....giving God glory. Like John the Baptist said about Jesus, I must decrease so he can increase.

Peace and love,

Kim

 

Hi spinning

I was trying to read your post, got lost in it or my attention span wigged out on me . Sorry, however what I did read seemed indicitive that we are not healed becuase we are not like Jesus.

Sadley, I am not like Jesus, have never been and I never will be - not in tis world. That's why I am so greatful for Jesus doing what I could never do for myself. He took the penality in my stead. One day I know I will see Him "Again" and He will call me by my name "again" . Well that's another story except to say , Jesus once told me. Cindy, your life will be hard just remember I will always be with you and I'll get you thu it. when your old, you will die and then you will be with me..... He said other tings too but this is not the time to go there. Well Jesus was true to His words. Things where going so well for me for so long after this experience that I thought I wouldn't know what "hard " was becuse Jesus was making the "hard" easy! Then came MM. Now I understand what He was talking about . I just remind myself that He is with me , His power is sufficiet and one day I will leave this pollutted version of myslef behind and be with HIM. That is when I will receive my healing and be MM free.

 

Hi Kim, I'll answer yours first, only because it is shorter! I do not disagree with anything you say. Yes, God is great; I am not. God reveals Himself in His own ways. Yet, each Sunday pastors and reverands and priests and others, all over the world, take a particular passage from the Bible and analyzes it for an audience. That is the Sunday sermon. That being the case, it is difficult to imagine that these passages should not hold some hidden meaning, a meaning that can and should be deciphered while we are earthbound mortals. What I attempt to do is to make all these passages work within and among themselves, losing inconsistency. I believe the Bible is consistent if you can decipher its ultimate meaning. Others will disagree, or disagree that the meaning is hidden. Yet the Bible in no way speaks plainly. It is like puzzle. Perhaps I'm just not smart enough to understand it and others see the forest where I see only trees. When you are only seeing trees, you don't know that is what you are seeing. That may be where I am. Maybe it is so much more simple than I make it. But if that is the case, why so many books? Why so many chapters, verses? Why so much about something that is so simple? I wouldn't know. That makes me think there is more to it than many may be taken to believe. Whose right? Heck if I know.

Thanks for your kind note as always. You are a gentle and kind lady. I wish well for you and your husband.

Hank

 

HSM

I am not sure, but I think it was my post that you are refering to. If it is, I apologize for your confusion. There were a lot of complex answers to a lot of complex issues. I do not believe that we have to be like Jesus in order to be healed.

I think I know why Jesus talked in parables. What I was trying to say is that God gave us an instruction book for a reason. If He did not want for us to read and apply it, He would not have given it to us. How many times have you opened an incredible and complex electronic gadget like a computer and started using it without reading the instructions. You know that you're not using it to full capacity and it can do great things far beyond what you are making it do. Then something comes up that you need to know or something goes wrong and you start scrambling through the instructions to try to find the patch. I was trying to say that we want to have miracles in our lives and we want God in our lives, but we don't want to read and apply the sometimes difficult instructions in the Bible that tell us how to pray to bring the miracles (Mark 11: 22-25) and what some of the considerations are in asking for miracles like God's will and glorifying God and how to live a life that is pleasing to God and better for us. God also gives us a direct link to Him through prayer that we don't use fully. Then we expect miracles and can't understand when they don't happen or they don't happen the way we intended.

Can you get a miracle without this? Yes, of course, if it is God's will and God is glorified. But we can increase the likelihood that we know how to ask and what to expect and why perhaps we didn't get everything we asked for. So what I meant is that we will probably increase our chances by reading the Bible and understanding what God's will is and what glorifies Him and how to pray. Reading and studying the Bible on an ongoing basis will give us insight and it will lead us to the things that God wants us to do outside of miracles. If we truly loved one another as the Bible says to, we would not even need many of the healing miracles we request. I pray that this makes sense.

Actually Hank and I agree on the very basic concept that man can receive many more miracles than he is. Our lives could be dramatically different. I think that we agree that lack of faith is probably the major reason that man does not receive more miracles. But from there we disagee and I regret that. However, based on what I have read before and even while studying the Bible to answer these issues in this thread, I can't believe things like Jesus was just a man, that man is equal to God, that man can do miraculous things at his will instead of the will of God, and that man can achieve perfection of any duration through an act or work. There are so many references that point in other directions.

I have already taken way too much time away from work and personal life, much more than I wanted, to study what the Bible says and post that here, because I thought that what was being discussed here is important. There really is nothing more that I can say that I have not already said at least twice which is against my rules. Anything more would be a rehash of a rehash. So everyone, go with God.

And the people said...

 

Seeker,

As I said in the beginning you are the master here, I am but the student. You in your sense of humility deny being the master of anything and I understand that, but we all know the truth here.

In my feeble mind there is an undeniable transitive property at work here. Jesus said, as you quote, "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." He also said, "That which you do to the least of your brothers you do to me." Genesis requires that Man is created "in God's image." That would include the least of one's brothers. You say I take these verses out of context. Yet this transitive pattern connecting one to each other, God-to-Jesus-to-Man, is laced throughout the Bible and the teachings of Jesus. Plainly I see something here that you and the folks who have responded to this thread do not see. Perhaps what I see is a phantom. Whereas I understand your interpretations and do not reject them, you do not understand mine and do reject them. Whereas I claim not necessarily to be right, you do claim to be right. Whereas I claim doubt. You claim no doubt. Yet here we both are, you in your life, I in mine. I see God's Will working in my life. I will bet that you do in yours. I see miracles in life each day, the largest miracle of which is my own consciousness, consciousness with which I can behold, register and reason the meaning of the remaining miracles I experience of God's creation. But as is the nature of these kinds of discussion, we have reached our impass. I yield to your wisdom and knowledge and humbly retreat to my own.

I thank you and others for your thoughtful input and vow that I will not stop learning until I no longer walk the earth.

Hank

 

Hank

Reject is strong. Can't support by what I found in my research which is always biased to some degree by belief system. Actually I started out trying to prove your theories. You say I am the master but I learned a lot through research and this discussion. I apologize for my frustration and ranting. You have maintained a generous spirit despite that and you have a thought provoking way which is why I posted longer than I initially intended. You are right that there are miracles around us every day. I pray that God will guide your path. It is good that we have people who search for answers. Go in peace.

In His Name

 

Anyone who was interested in this thread while it was ongoing might find Joel Osteen's sermon this week very interesting as well. Joel speaks of Man posessing the faith 'of' God, not necessarily faith 'in' God. He gives the biblical reference for that. According to Joel's interpretation, the Bible indicates that God has placed a smidgeon (my word) of His faith in all of us. It is that faith, God's faith, that can perform miracles. But while it is truly God's faith that performs such miracles, it is Man who has the gift of God's faith at his disposal, to choose to use or not. Joel urges us to use that faith 'of' God, such strong faith that I even called it 'knowledge' in the thread above, to perform what one might refer as miracle healing or faith healing.

I thought Joel's message was exceedingly interesting this week, as I do every week. But because this week's sermon happened to cross several lines that once interested folks here, I thought I would call it to their attention.

Health to all,

Hank

 

BTW: You can download the Podcast version free of charge at:

http://joelosteen.lakewood.cc/site/PageServer?pagename=JOM_podcasts