the brain dump version of disassociation & sin for Hank - OVERLOAD WARNING

APOLOGIES UP FRONT FOR ANYONE WANTING BYTE-SIZED POSTS. This thread is not for you. Just wanted to warn you.

Hank,

Where to start even. I am a Christian. I believe that Christ was God’s ‘son’ and ‘died for our sins’, but maybe not in the same exact way as most which we’ll get to, I’m sure. I have some beliefs that are not hard/fast fundamental beliefs, but, not to start a maelstrom, I personally am not a big one for the pc approach to accept all beliefs. Pluralism (“Whatever you want to believe is okay because we’re all okay.”). Society needs one higher belief and set of rules to live by in order to live together peacefully. When anything goes, when we honor every belief because it is the pc thing to do, there is chaos, we create the ‘factioning’ we so desperately try not to. Like driving where a green light means ‘go’ to some, and ‘turn left’ to others.

Secondly, to define God would take volumes, if even possible, which I believe it is not… we don’t have the understanding to do so. But let me offer that God referred to himself as “I AM”. I AM what? Being. I AM. That’s all you need to know. I AM an old guy in white robes on a gold throne. I AM Christ and the Holy Ghost. I AM the Word. I AM creation. I AM the energy that makes up everything within the Creation. I AM man because I am Creation and the energy that makes up everything within Creation. I AM love. I AM.

Hank, your thesis (used that word for Aladdin, if she’s still around) about “God created Man, Man is of God, Man cannot be of anything else because Man is the result of God. God is energy. Man is energy. Man’s energy, being of God, is God’s energy” sounds very similar to the logic I heard recently on a Catholic cable TV station program (only saw five minutes – don’t know the name of it). The Bible does say that God created man in His image (actually in one reference, it says “our” image ????). What does that mean? Two ears, eyes, arms, legs, et cetera (this is where the old man on a throne image is perpetuated) or in an image that supercedes our shells (jars of clay)… supercedes our capacity to understand what He is referring to. Let’s look briefly at the pronoun He which perpetuates the guy on the throne image. What else would we use: It? In our vernacular, do we really want to refer to the creator of heaven and earth as It, even with a capital I? She: while this would envision a more loving God, it is not authoritarian enough in the context of a patriarchal society to be creator of the universe – what is the male role in this case? How about “We” or “They” (supposing we still believe we’re autonomous) – the Bible sometimes refers to God in the plural – but, oh gosh, now we’ve got all sorts of questions and dilemmas, and projections of what each of the members of the God board are like. Won’t know in this lifetime what the definition of God is.. But I think we agree that Man is not really autonomous; it is, in fact, the belief that he is that causes strife and evil to exist.

Where we part ways a little is that I believe that we ARE self-governing in our current state. We have to be in order to have the concept of “free will” and the ability to choose God, or not choose Him. We were created to have a choice to be self-serving or other (God) serving (“As you do to the least of these”). Without “separation” and free will, there are no separate entities to show love (no one to hug, so to speak). We are Creation loving itself, God loving Himself.

No problems, hiccups, questions, need for mind meld… Separate but whole at the same time. (Also, past, present and future, separate yet whole/combined – we’ll get into that later – that’s a real mind blower). There are so many things, so many facets that we just don’t understand, can’t even begin to fathom (sort of like Ezekiel – didn’t have adequate words to describe what he saw so referred to it as a “chariot” in the sky – whatever it was, it was more than a chariot). Goes back to my reference: My friend looks at what man has written and says “we know so much” and I look and say “we know so little”.

“For to violate any of these laws would be to destroy a portion of God’s devolvement, a portion therefore of God Himself. And because for one to violate any of these laws would be to destroy a portion of God, to do so would also destroy a portion of one’s self, for God and one’s self are whole.” Yes. Precisely. Cats have it right: Don’t poop where you eat. The introduction of evil. If we accept the premise that implementing the two greatest commandments are good in the eyes of God, support God, are of God, then not doing them is sin, and evilness. We reign havoc upon ourselves and God's creation which is separate and combined with God, by violating God’s laws. Let’s take for example the Bible quote that says the sins of the father are visited upon the generations (plural) after. I don’t think that this means that God is going to bonk the family members of the sinner on the head with a golden sepluchre or smite them with His very large hand, but that sin and evilness create more sin and evilness. We’re right back to the communications thread… if I insult you, you feel you have to insult me or someone else to regain your sense of self and that person will have to insult someone else. My dysfunctional family reference was a perfect example: I loved my grandfather with all of my little kid heart, but he was a horrible man to his wife and children, which as you saw in my airing of family laundry ended up with his great great grandchildren being told hurtful things and being manipulated and controlled by their father who was by his father who was by his father who was by his father. The sins of the father will be visited on future generations. Disassociation. Heartache. Separation. Evil.

Why do you think Christ calls for us to be so forgiving? Yes, because it is good for the other person, but also because it is so good for us, the forgivers, as well. Disconnection creates horrible things: illness, stress, high blood pressure, headache, heartache within our own bodies. We twist ourselves up and hurt ourselves by being hateful and unforgiving. When we are unforgiving and hold grudges and further disassociate, we are destroying the others, ourselves and God, separately and combined.

Are we having fun, yet?

One more addition to your thought about ‘by hurting others, we’re hurting ourselves’. I would include all of Creation. When we destroy the earth’s resources and beauty with pollution in order to fulfill our separate little autonomous desires, we are sinning in a big way. Think using crucial resources and watching people starve in Africa so that we can make TVs for the kids’ rooms in the shape of Hello Kitty (a personal peeve – sorry if I offend anyone). I mean what is that all about. Think global warming, in order to have twenty pairs of shoes… separation. Me. I want. Don’t show me those pictures of starving people, it upsets ME. Sin. Evilness. (Won’t this get some response is anyone is still tuned in?)


Healing:
“So, what does all this mean for healing and dealing with chronic disorders?” The possibilities for healing ARE endless. “If you have the faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains.” “Ye of little faith”. I can’t even remember all of the quotes of Christ in this area. He told us that we have the power to cure ourselves. We need to do a Bible study of the New Testament and see how many times “faith” or “believe” are connected to the concept of healing.

Now, let’s go back to your thought that by being more/better connected with others, more caring, we can heal ourselves (or each other). If we believe that sinning is separation, does the following scripture take on new meaning?

Matthew 9:2-6:
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. WHEN JESUS SAW THEIR FAITH, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son;YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN”. At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming.” Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? WHICH IS EASIER: TO SAY ‘YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN’, OR TO SAY ‘GET UP AND WALK?’”…..

Why doesn’t healing happen? We don’t really believe. We, I venture to say (and I’m sure if anyone else is still paying attention, it will create response), are not leading truly Godly lives. We go through motions. We say we’re Christians and do what we want to get whatever we desire (I call this Jessica Simpsom syndrome). We don’t live in the Bible, we don’t pray constantly, and most of all, WE DON’T REALLY BELIEVE. (Joyce Meyer has a great saying about churchgoers who don’t live the faith…. “Just because I sit in a garage all day don’t make me a car.” – Love that. My personal metaphor has always been that I can say I’m a musician or a baseball player, but until I live it – eating, breathing, practicing, practicing, practicing, thinking about it, getting into the game, am I really a musician or a baseball player?). Until we truly LIVE as Christians and all that that means, are we Christians just because we say so? If we’ve TRULY accepted Christ as our savior wouldn’t our lives totally change?

About enough faith: I had a good friend who had rare lung cancer. She found out that the longest anyone survived with it (at the leading health care facility nearby) was two and one-half years, she lasted three. I kept telling her to pray: asking for healing and expecting it. Believing she would get it. She kept telling me “if God wants it”, afraid of offending Him. I said “HE WANTS IT!!!” She couldn’t do it, but her faith that she was strong and could hold on as long as the longest survivor was what got her that far. She received what she believed in.

I do think that the reason most miraculous recoveries involve terminally ill people is because they are so desperate. They HAVE to believe; it’s the ONLY way out.

Now we get into something more controversial – energy/power. We now know that all matter is made up of energy. It is all vibrating, but at speeds and frequencies we can’t feel (shouldn’t that give us some insight into the fact that there is a lot more out there than we can see or fathom). Read, but don’t believe in: The Celestine Prophecy (it is fiction for gosh sakes) and The Secret. Both deal with energy and its use. I don’t care for the way in which The Secret approaches it: use the divine power of Creation/God to get a parking spot, a Mercedes, get thin, ME, ME, ME – more separation).

Now, in that context of use of energy or power, I draw attention to one scripture that has always intrigued me:
Luke 8:43 – 48
And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years, but no one could heal her. She came up behind him and touched the edge of this cloak, and immediately her bleeding stopped.
“Who touched me?” Jesus asked.
When they all denied it, Peter said, “Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you.”
BUT JESUS SAID, “SOMEONE TOUCHED ME; I KNOW THAT POWER HAS GONE OUT FROM ME.”
Then the woman, seeing that she could not go unnoticed, came trembling and fell at his feet. In the presence of all of the people, she told why she had touched him and how she had been instantly healed. Then he said to her, “DAUGHTER, YOUR FAITH HAS HEALED YOU. GO IN PEACE.”

I don’t think that you need to spend 40 days in the desert; in fact, I think looking for a specific answer, an experience, a course, a workshop, a pill (very Western way of thinking) won't get you there. I think that you do need to become more Christ like. And I believe (gulp) that this is PARTIALLY what he meant by saying you cannot get to the Father but through me.” To follow the example He set. What is that example: always, always, always, always, always, always being connected to God. How many times did Christ go away from crowds, disciples, et cetera, to pray. We should do a Bible study on that as well. How many times did He pray. Love others. Be a channel for the energy of God to flow through you and out to others. Always respond in love (not so easy). Keep your eyes on the important stuff: what did Jesus own? Use and ‘abuse’ of money (ME, ME, ME) was, I believe, Jesus’s most frequent topic because it is SO important to us little self-governing subsets...as security, as status among others, as a way of defining who we are to ourselves and others, as a means to get what we desire (and just maybe even manipulate others). Read more about the disciplines. This will bring up things I’m not thinking of because of fatigue right now. Get “The Spirit of the Disciplines” written by Dallas Willard, a phenomenal theologian, and the sister book “Celebration of the Disciplines” by Richard Foster. Foster is a Quaker minister at the church Willard attended. Willard approaches the disciplines from a scholarly approach, and Foster from a lighter, loving, pastoral approach which rounds out the picture.

Hope this is helps the thought process and clarifies my reference to Christian 'ethic' in the conversation thread in the Living Room and why what we say in every instance takes on such vital importance.

Spininininininininin

 

Spinning....I enjoyed reading your post and look forward to your next one. Happy Easter.

 

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"Why doesn’t healing happen? We don’t really believe. We, I venture to say (and I’m sure if anyone else is still paying attention, it will create response), are not leading truly Godly lives."

Whoa, if I am seeing this correctly it means that disease is my fault because I am not good enough. How to account for wonderfully good, kind, generous, people who live "truly Godly lives"? They become ill with some awful thing because they are not Godly enough? There is enough guilt in the world that we should be saddled with fault for a disease is too much. I don't buy it one iota. Blaming the victim induces more harm.

 

Sorry Spinin' but I disagree too on what you wrote about healing.

I know people on the forum get ticked off when pain is compared but there are really worse things (and I am not minimizing the suffering caused by MM) that many people are born with or had to endure as infants that has nothing to do with Godliness or leading Godly lives.

As for me, I certainly do not deserve to be afflicted by daily dizziness and attacks and hearing loss etc. regardless of what I may have done that may not be Godly enough....neither would I wish it upon anybody else, regardless of how they live their lives.

I don't agree with this either. Everybody is responsible for their share of bad choices and to assume that the future generations will be tainted by them doesn't sit well with me. We have the opportunity every single moment of every single day to know better and do better regardless of what came before us or what was done to us. I don't subscribe to the theory of sin and evil because I don't approach life from a Christian standpoint but I do believe that all of us are born with inherent goodness and then some of us make pretty bad choices and screw it up but with help, guidance, awareness and desire we can return to that place of inherent goodness that we were born with. Do bad choices perpetuate more bad choices? No! I am living proof (and I do not wish to go into the details of it).

Again this leads to the question we know so much/know so little compared to whom?
I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here for either you or your friend. You are both obviously using two very different objects of comparison. She may be referring to other people and you are referring to a spiritual entity.

 

I believe we are born into a fallen world and we all have a fallen nature. I'm not guilty about it, I just believe it. I believe part of belonging to this fallen world is sickness. It's human nature to compare yourself or someone against another. Part of Christianity means accepting that we are less than good. We can seem good compared to someone else, but through the eyes of a perfect and Holy God, we are not. This belief is purely a Christian perspective. If you're not a Christian, I expect you'll disagree.

If you are a Christian, you will recognize that our imperfections are made perfect in Christ. We must be in Christ to be seen as good. In order to be in Christ, we must accept Him. In order to accept Him, we must believe. And that belief is what we call faith.

Again, purely a Christian perspective. Until I experienced being in Christ, if I had read my above statements I would have thought the person writing it was either incapable of thinking for himself, uneducated, or crazy.

I have an opinion, based on scripture and experience, of where faith comes into play regarding healing. But I don't think this forum is the place for it.

 

Although we are not sick because of our own sin, we suffer illness because of man's inherited sinful nature thru Adam. Please note the difference.God does not want us to be sick. But His will can be shown thru our illness.
God will not put us thru something that will defeat His purpose, it doesn't make sense or glorify Him in the least.
But he wants us purified, so He steps back and allows it. To the point, and maybe beyond, what seems comprehensible to us.
Unforgiveness will make you sick and keep you sick. Your immune system will falter, glands fail,etc.
To believe that God's will will triumph in the end, is faith. The when and where is His domain.
2 Corinthians 4:16 "Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

 

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Kim,

Thanks for the explanation. You're always so eloquent with your words and your faith come shining through your post
While I do not think the Spinnin's post is crazy (I was educated in a Christian pre-school, school and college by nuns and teachers who were Christian) I think I simply disagree after giving it thought and attempting to relate to some of the explanations. And who knows, maybe I am taking the very long way to then some day, go back to my original religious education.

Dmac..yes, I agree that harboring resentment and bitterness through holding on can make us sicker, if not physically then emotionally and mentally.

 

Well, at least there are live people responding. The complexities of communication. The filters we bring as speaker and as receivers. Titus is right. I have lived within the Christian precept for so long, I think everyone is reading with the same definitions, et cetera.

Pardonme – don’t know how to respond because I’m not sure what you mean about disagreeing with vibration thing, unless you are joking about MM giving that sensation. Sorry, if I didn’t catch it.

Gardenfish – This has nothing to do with being “good enough”. Christianity doesn’t have to do with being “good enough”. On the contrary it deals with not being good enough, yet having faith and living out that faith which is the true statement of that faith (not just saying it)… Kim ’s point: perfection through faith in Christ. I never said it did have to do with being “good enough”. There are many, wonderfully, good, kind, generous people who become ill. It is not their faults. It is not God’s ‘fault’; it is part of our separation (“fallen nature” as dmac put it). No one is blaming the victims. No one is blaming the victims for not getting better. When I say Godly lives, I mean that we aren’t fully connected with God. We (in general – yes there are some who do) don’t truly, completely put God in the center of our lives. Live each breath through and for Him the way Christ did. And we (in general, me in particular) therefore don’t have the kind of total faith that results in miraculous healing. Christ never, to my knowledge, said, “You are healed because you are good enough.” He said, “You are healed because you have faith, because you believe.” That’s the whole point.

Sarita –

I’m not sure if my further explanation to Gardenfish answered your argument or not. I repeat that I don’t think nor ever stated that anyone ‘deserves’ to be sick, despite what they have or have not done. It has nothing to do with what they have done (other than being born). I wouldn’t wish illness of any kind on anyone regardless of how they live their lives either. And neither would Christ or He wouldn't have healed the people He did. He never said, "I'm sorry, you don't deserve to be healed, but you do."

Here is where, to Kim’s point, a Christian viewpoint differs from a non-Christian viewpoint… I believe that all of us are born in a separated state. We are born selfish and self-centered (we don’t have to learn to not share and to take toys we want from others and to tell our parents ‘no’). I’m not sure we can reconcile our viewpoints on this. I do know, but can’t quote off the top of my head, the statistics are very high of wifebeaters who come from homes where the mother was beaten, the number of child abusers who were abused themselves. The sin tendencies, the separation tendencies perpetuate themselves through the generations unless someone (like you by your admission) is aware enough and strong enough to break the mold. I protected my child from what was going on in my family because of a lot of guidance and awareness and desire. My sibling didn’t and his son didn’t. Those are facts. I am glad that you have broken the cycle, with or without giving us details. Remember what I said about someone saying “I saw a purple cow.” And the other person saying “why are you being so mean to me.” I hope that that is what happening when you say “and I do not wish to go into the details of it” instead of taking a jab at me because I did (because I don’t accept the jab if intended).

Back to Pardonme -

Yeah, but I had to give it a try. There is nothing like putting it into words in front of an audience to galvanize and crystalize and strengthen, test your writing skills. I knew this would be somewhat dicey which is why I wanted to get it off of the Living Room and let that continue to heal a little. I did think however that because it was a search of the cosmos and because there was such little involvement in the conversation thread, that it was just going to be Hank and me.

Thanks guys for the input. You help me understand where my reasoning needs better definition.

SpinininOhio

 

Oh, and Kim and dmac, thanks for the backup! Happy Easter!!!

dmac -

This used to be confusing to me until I came to the realization that it is through faith that we glorify God and are "purified" through strife brought on by separation/fallen state in that it is that strife that brings us to that faith.

I agree with this because unforgiveness causes stress, heart rate increases, blood pressure goes up, in some cases with stress and blood pressure increases chest pains start or strokes happen, et cetera. I believe too that prolonged stress can affect your immune system.

SpinininOhio

 

And, oh, Sarita, I missed this first time 'round'.

compared to what we later know. In the 1800's we bled people to make them well, we allowed mothers and infants to die at alarming rates because doctors didn't know to wash their hands first, before January 15, 1941 (whatever the real date is), we did not know Pluto existed. I think we know a lot, but we don't know alot that maybe we will one day... it is in that context I say "we know so little".

SpinininOhio

 

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Hey, lighten up!! Not everything is about you

Sometimes when topics are discussed, I have to come to a place of 'let's agree to disagree' because the approaches are so contrasting that the conversations can run on parallel tracks forever without ever meeting. For me when it comes to religious topics this is how it is. I like this discussion but there is only so much I can contribute to it because the approaches are so contrasting.
That's not to say there is not enough listening or talking just that very quickly I get to the place of OK, this is what works for you and that is what works for me.
My meeting point lies in the fact that anything that we believe and use to make us better people is wonderful and a ton better than the alternative of not doing anything.

 

Oh boy ???,

I just found this one lookin' around. I was still back over in the other area. I've got a lot of catching up to do here. I'm waaaaaaay behind. Forgive.

Must digest. Regarding whether one is a Christian I will say this: Is being a Christian trying to emulate an organized religion view of what being a Christian is, or is being a Christian trying to emulate what an individual's views of Christanity might be?

Will have to come back to this...

Hank

 

Sarita

Accepted! I see the purple cow, too, now. ;D ;D ;D

Also accepted. Religious beliefs are so hard to discuss without some disagreement and elevated emotions because they are such core beliefs.

Sarita, I have enjoyed our time together.

SpinininOhio

 

Me too

 

Pardonme

Fair enough, if I am interpreting accurately. I probably should read it six more times before responding, but... nah, jump in. I do struggle with what I think you're saying. I am a Christian, but if you go back to my paragraphs on the definition and image of God, I don't know that I can accurately define Christ's statement as being the only way to the Father any more than I can define God. (First I need to get the accurate statement). If we accept that God is Christ is the Holy Spirit is Creation is... what part of that was Christ referring to - Christ the man, Christ the Word, Christ the God? I don't know. So we may not be quite as far apart as you think. I still think though that a society (country, I don't know, I'm not even sure how to define society in this case) needs a 'major' religion or belief system or in its most dramatic example, you end up with the type of civil war going on in Iraq. We have to look at religion on two levels: personal belief and pervasive belief system that guides a whole people. You are very intelligent and well reasoned. In looking at religion as a pervasive belief system, there are some people (not meant to be derogatory, but factual) who are not intelligent or well-reasoned enough to ponder separate beliefs; they are usually the first ones to reach for a fist, a knife, a gun to finish their argument.

SpinininOhio

 

Spinnin....There are several veins of thought going on here......1) differences in individual spiritual relationships with God or any higher power....and 2) differences among Christians on what defines a Christian.

Just addressing #2 alone.....simple basic Christian theology is the acceptance of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit....most specifically that Jesus is the son of God. Christians can analyze all day about HOW best to be a Christian by interpreting Biblical scripture. Scripture serves as a guide book, lessons , parables and examples of how to begin to "live" that life.....but as a Christian, I have to accept the fact that there are millions of Christians that don't have access, can't read or do not even have a Bible to read and study....yet they still make up the "church". Christianity is not bound in a book, a building or a person.....it is pure faith in Christ...it's just that simple.

I'm not discounting the value in the lessons of scripture, I just think we tend to make it too difficult. Man made rules on how to apply the "Word of the Lord" are not always of God.

Have a blessed weekend whether you all are observing Easter or not.

 

Tess

Beautiful and true. And a concept I am sorry I had not given full consideration. Yes, there are millions accepting Christ and God on faith alone, no Bible to help them interpret.

Yes, I agree too that we can interpret scripture too much. And use our motivations to drive it. That is a conundrum of a religious belief. I'm not sure it's totally avoidable. We just have to do our best to try to be true.

So many times, we think we understand something, but - poof - revelation. Yes, I have always known the key is faith/belief, but I'm am beginning to really see the multiple levels of that... the need to breathe that faith every second.

Thank you. A blessing.

SpinininOhio