Science Based v. Results Based Treatments for Chronic Idiopathic Symptoms

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Good night, Scott.

I am glad that you have discovered something that has helped you.

Finally, two philosophical points to sleep on...

First point

Someone once said, "We can never know the extent of that which we do not know." I agree with that; it is impossible to know the extent of our own ignorance. And in stating this, I do not speak against you, or anyone, but rather toward a point. I cannot know what I do not know. You cannot know what you do not know. Medical science cannot know. I dare say that what mankind, and therefore any institution of mankind, does know is not even a drop in the bucket compared to what it does not know.

Second point

Knowlege begets certain authority to speak over that which is known. That being the case, knowing how insufficient our knowlege is, for any of us, individually or institutionally, to assume that someone else's experiences and conclusions are invalid, especially given certain repetitive patterns of positive results, to the extent that we decry them and invalidate them to others, is to venture into that realm of what is unknown to us and act as if it is known, which oversteps our own personal authority to do so.

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Scott, I was aware of that, but thanks.

I would urge you to do some research on ageofautism.com, as well as the Huffington Post.

Those are the two sources that come to mind immediately.

I am VERY familiar with Dr. Wakefield's case series that was originally published in the Lancet. I went over it with a fine-tooth comb with our pediatrician about 10 years ago. I also heard Dr. Wakefield speak, and asked him some questions.

So I feel very qualified to say this: what happened with the GMC was a total witch hunt.

Even the link you provided has the facts wrong:

#1)It was never a STUDY--it was a case series.

#2)Dr. Wakefield, Murch, and Walker-Smith NEVER claimed that the MMR caused autism. They also emphasized that they did NOT think that anyone should stop vaccinating--they simply said that from what they found, they believed more research was needed, and that it would be safer to give separate Measles, Mumps, and Rubella shots until further research done. I read it in their paper, and I heard him say it at a conference 10 years ago.

But he has been misquoted and then crurcified for the misquotes.

3)The PARENTS of EVERY SINGLE CHILD IN THAT STUDY have gone on record saying that the supposedly "invasive procedures" done on their children was the best thing that ever happened to them, and that they WERE necessary.

Do you know what the "invasive procedures" were? Endoscopies--which is standard care for ANY child with severe bowel disorders, which these children had (which was why they were referred to Wakefield's group in the first place). Go read a few forums for parents of autistic kids--85% or more have severe bowel problems, but until Wakefield's study, no doctor would bother even looking for anything related to that in these children; they simply told the parents, "No, that's just how autistic kids act."

And guess what? Most of these kids have celiac disease. Read up on how much pain and distress THAT can cause. The latest studies are now confirming that autistic kids DO have a very high rate of IBS-type problems. (The one from last year that was in the news was not a true study, but an analyses of PAST studies--from times when no doctor bothered to consider whether autistic kids might possibly have anything physically wrong with them.)

Now tell me how a severely autistic kid who is not capable of speech is going to communicate those symptoms to anyone. It's hard enough for "neuro-normal" adults to convince their doctors to run a celiac test. Can you imagine what these children and their parents endured?

Umm, gee, do you think it might be like having Meniere's symptoms, but the doctor says it's all in your head?

Again, I've BEEN there. My son's kindergarten teachers were calling me at work, telling me that my son was in such severe pain and distress trying to poop that they were about to call an ambulance for him. And the pediatrician shrugged it off. Those episodes ended once he stopped eating gluten.

Oh--Wakefield did blood draws. That was the other "invasive" procedure done on those children.

In the endoscopies, he found the measles virus in the lining of the intestines, I think in 10 of the 12 kids? (I'm not sure I remember the numbers correctly, but you should be able to view copieds of the case series on AoA or Huffpo).) As most of those kids had been vaccinated several years earlier, IT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE. (The one kid who wasn't vaccinated had had the measles.)In this case series, Wakefield et al admitted that it wasn't a proper double-blind study--but there has been no evidence of the measles virus in the lining of the intestines of non-autistic kids.

I'll repeat--Wakefield NEVER said that the MMR causes autism--in fact, I believe that in the original paper, he went out of his way to say that they were specifically NOT saying that. And he always insisted that he did NOT think that parents should avoid vaccines.

Interestingly, AFTER this paper came out, Merck decided to stop producing the separate measles, mumps and rubella vaccines.

I think, either AgeofAutism or the Huffington Post has the entire transcript of the GMC hearings. Please read them.

You'll find that the head of the GMC has strong connections to the vaccine industry, as did the original complainant in the GMC hearings, who ALSO just happened to be the writer who "uncovered" the story. And that is actually a conflict of interest that should have ended the whole hearing right there.

You'll find a lot of other interesting info, as well--and much better-written and better-organized than what I am able to do here.

Do I want serious illnesses like polio to come back? No, of course not. But I want the vaccine industry to take responsibility when things go wrong, and I want them to fix the things that DO go wrong. They don't. In the US, they have total liability protection--your child can drop dead within 10 minutes of a vaccine, you can PROVE beyond the shadow of a doubt that it was caused by the vaccine--and neither the manufacturer nor the doctor are liable.

And this is true for EVERY SINGLE VACCINE, not just polio. This is true for the flu shot, even though effectiveness has not been shown in children and in the elderly.

Please tell me how doing endoscopies on autistic children with severe bowel disorders is wrong, but giving untested and/or unproven vaccines (containing KNOWN toxins) for mild illnesses to every child, whether sensitive or not, is right?

Sorry for steering away from the original topic--just responding to studio's post.

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

That's not completely accurate. Vaccine-related incidents have a stautorily-created compensation system that is outside of normal civil courts. There are also caps on damages for vaccine-related claims. But they do not now and never have had "total liability protection."

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Can JoH tell you exactly why his regimen works? No. For that matter, can physicists tell us why electromagnitism works, why gravity works? No. They just know that it does work.

What I have done with any theories I postulate is to look at the evidence myself, look at the various parts available in the body that might interact with one another to yield these results, and knowing that there are many folks out there who need an explanation for all this, I give my best shot at an explanation for these results. But in doing so, I am no different than anyone else, even science. Am I correct? Who knows. But it makes certain sense with all of my experiences and study, experiences and study that incidentally you have not had, nor been privy to, Wino. You have yours. I do not discredit them. I have mine, you do discredit them, or seem to, even in view of all the folks whom my thoughts and efforst have helped, folks who post right here, and you read them.

So as soon as you can explain to me how gravity works, then I'll stop trying to give my best explanations for theses things I experience and learn about. But doing so oversteps no bounds, good friend. If it did, electromagnetic theory overstepped it bounds the day Benjamin Franklin flew his kite. He had an idea and he tested that idea. I have an idea, and tested it. A lot of people have. And as true as lightening lit up Franklin's key, folks have gotten well.

What more can anyone ask and why have I done anything beyond my own personal authority?

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Wino, you are not doing your homework, and you are posting mis-information.

Kids were vaccinated in California with thimerosal-containing vaccines through 2006 at the very earliest.

It is now 2010. Any 4-year-old being diagnosed will have received thimerosal-containing vaccines.

In addition, the studies reported now were, at the latest, using 2004 cohorts.

You are not taking the time lag into account.

Mercury from fish that is eaten is a bit different from mercury injected directly into the blood stream. 25 micrograms of mercury injected into a 7-pound newborn will obviously have a different effect from 25 micrograms of mercury eaten by 150-pound adult.

Interestingly, here in the US, within a year of the announcement that children's vaccines would be produced without mercury, it was also announced that the mercury in fish was not as dangerous as thought, and that it was more important to eat fish than to avoid it in the hopes of avoiding mercury. I'm not kidding.

So schools here put tuna back into the school lunches.

As far as genetics go, you just made the case yourself--if there is a genetic link to autism, it is in those who are reacting to the vaccines.

Is it JUST the mercury in the vaccines? I highly doubt it. Add mercury exposure with aluminum and other adjuvants, add multiple vaccines at one time (sometimes as many as 8 or 9), add cow's milk (especially in baby formula--studies show fewer breastfed kids develop severe autism), add repeated antibiotics and add tylenol given concurrently with vaccines, and you have a recipe for MAJOR immune system problems, major brain inflammation problems, and major neurological problems.

Will this happen to everyone who receives vaccines? No, it hasn't yet, but in 30 years, we have increased the number of childhood vaccines from 5 to 36--and nobody has bothered to study the safety of either this practice or of most of the individual vaccines, let alone studying the long-term effects of multiple vaccines.

And the incidence of severe autoimmune disorders has made an equally meteoric rise, as has autism.

Should we assume that there is a direct causal effect?

Well, what is it going to take before we rule it out? We can't afford to accept ONLY studies performed, interpreted, and, yes, MARKETED by the industry that sells the product.

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Again, I plan to address each of your points in a very reasoned and deliberate manner, Hank, But you've said so much that it's going to take me time to get through it -- in addition to getting through my workday

But, incidentally, I don't think that the recommendations of the JOH regimen compare very much to your posts on NUCCA. While certainly the JOH regimen has not been ratified in its entirety by the medical community, there has been a very learned scientific approach taken by John of Ohio in putting together the regimen. And the recommendations in the regimen are largely based on scientific studies into each of the individual components. For example, there is scientific evidence showing that L-lysine does, in fact, have an effect on herpes replication. And John believes that there is a link between herpes and MM -- a theory that, while not universally agreed on, has its proponents in the medical/scientific community -- so it stands to reason that if herpes is the cause of your problems then an anti-herpetic substance should make you feel better.

Your explanations of the anatomy and how/why NUCCA worked for you, however, do not enjoy the same benefits of the doubt as the JOH regimen because they are anatomically inaccurate. And trust me, I can and will get into the specifics later because it is worth discussing.

With that being said, I would never tell anyone NOT to do NUCCA, nor NOT to try JOH, nor any of the above. The simple fact of the matter is that if a patient tries something and it "cures" the patient of his problem, then in that particular patient's case it WAS the cure. The danger lies in creating unfounded expectations in others, and in potentially having a bunch of people desperate forn answer (as most of us on this forum are) use limited resources (money) on something that isn't likely to help.

In fact, I'll even share with you some personal anecdotes about the pitfalls to watch out for. Such as the chiropractor who convinced my sister in law that he could "cure" her son of his Turrette's disease and autism with chiropractic manipulations.

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Lots of peer-reviewed research showing ill-effects of vaccines, including sensoneural hearing loss:
Bichel, “Post-vaccinial Lymphadenitis Developing into Hodgkin’s Disease”, Acta Med Scand, 1976, Vol 199, p523-525.
Stewart, AM, et al, “Aetiology of Childhood Leukaemia”, Lancet, 16 Oct, 1965, 2:789-790. [listed under Vaccine Adverse Reactions.]
Glathe, H et al, “Evidence of Tumorigenic Activity of Candidate Cell Substrate in Vaccine Production by the Use of Anti-Lymphocyte Serum”, Development Biol Std, 1977, 34:145-148.
Bolognesi, DP, “Potential Leukemia Virus Subunit Vaccines: Discussion”, Can Research, Feb 1976, 36(2 pt 2):655-656.
Colon, VF, et al, “Vaccinia Necrosum as a Clue to Lymphatic Lymphoma”, Geriatrics, Dec 1968, 23:81-82.
Park-Dincsoy, H et al, “Lymphoid Depletion in a case of Vaccinia Gangrenosa”, Laval Med, Jan 1968, 39:24-26.
Hugoson, G et al, “The Occurrence of Bovine Leukosis Following the Introduction of Babesiosis Vaccination”, Bibl Haemat, 1968, 30:157-161.
Hartstock, , “”Post-vaccinial Lymphadenitis: Hyperplasia of Lymphoid Tissue That Simulates Malignant Lymphomas”, Apr 1968, Cancer, 21(4):632-649.
Allerberger, F, “An Outbreak of Suppurative Lymphadenitis Connected with BCG Vaccination in Austria- 1990/1991,” Am Rev Respir Disorder, Aug 1991, 144(2) 469.
Omokoku B, Castells S, “Post-DPT inoculation cervical lymphadenitis in children.” N Y State J Med 1981 Oct;81(11):1667-1668. Vaccines and Chromosome Changes Leading to Mutations:
Knuutila, S et al, “An Increased Frequency of Chromosomal Changes and SCE’s in Cultured Lymphocytes of 12 Subjects Vaccinated Against Smallpox,” Hum Genet, 1978 Feb 23; 41(1):89-96.
Cherkeziia, SE, et al, “Disorders in the Murine Chromosome Apparatus Induced By Immunization with a Complex of Anti-viral Vaccines,” Vopr Virusol, 1979 Sept Oct, (5):547-550.
[Note: SCE means sister chromatid exchange and is an indication that genetic mutations are occurring, which could possibly lead to cancer-causing mutations. Vaccines and Auto-immunity Citations:
Romanov, V A, et al, "Role of Auto-immune Processes in the Pathogenesis of Post-Vaccinal Lesions of the Nervous System", Oct 1977, Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol, 10:80-83.
Grachev, V P, et al, "Formation of Auto-antibodies in Laboratory Animals After Inoculation of Viruses With Different Virulence. I. Results of Studies ..., July 1973, Acta Virol (Praha), 17:319-326.
Movsesiants, AA, et al, "Experimental Study of the Ability of Different Strains of Vaccinia Virus to Induce Auto-Antibody Formation", Vopr Virusol, May-Jun 1975; (3):297-302.
Negina, IuP, "Comparative Study of Auto-antibody Formation Following Immunization With Different Types of Typhoid Vaccines", Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol, May 1980; (5):69-72. Vaccinations and Diabetes Citations:
Sinaniotis, et al, "Diabetes Mellitus after Mumps Vaccination", Arc Dis Child, 1975, 50:749.66
Polster, H, "Diabetes insipidus after Smallpox vaccination", Z Aerztl Fortbild (Jena), 1 Apr 1966, 60:429-432.
Patan, "Postvaccinal Severe Diabetes Mellitus", Ter Arkh, Jul 1968, 40:117-118.
Classen, JB, MD, "The Timing of Immunization Affects The Development of Diabetes in Rodents", Autoimmunity, 1996, 24:137-145.
Classen JB, "The diabetes epidemic and the hepatitis B vaccines," N Z Med J, 109(1030):366 1996 Sep 27. [letter]
Classen JB, “Childhood immunisation and diabetes mellitus,” N Z Med J, 109(1022):195 1996 May 24 [letter]
Poutasi K, ” Immunisation and diabetes,” N Z Med J 1996 Jul 26;109(1026):283. [letter; comment] Other Articles Linking Diabetes to Vaccines:
Dokheel, T M, “An Epidemic of Childhood Diabetes in the United States? Evidence from ….”, Diabetes Care, 1993, 16:1606-1611.
Parent ME, et al, “Bacille Calmette-Guerin vaccination and incidence of IDDM in Montreal, Canada,” Diabetes Care 1997 May; 20(5):767-772.
House DV, Winter WE, “Autoimmune diabetes. The role of auto-antibody markers in the prediction and prevention of insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus,” Clin Lab Med 1997 Sep; 17(3):499-545.
Zeigler, M et al , “[Autoantibodies in type 1 diabetes mellitus]” Z Arztl Fortbild (Jena). 1994 Aug; 88(7-8):561-5 Vaccines and Nervous System Changes:
Bondarev, VN et al, “The Changes of the Nervous System in Children After Vaccination”, Pediatria, Jun 1969; 48:20-24.
Ehrengut W, “Central nervous sequelae of vaccinations,” Lancet 1986 May 31;1(8492):1275-1276.
Provvidenza, G et al, [On a Case of Benign Acute Cerebellar Ataxia in Childhood], Arch Ital Sci Med Trop, 43:189-194, Apr 1962.
Katsilambros, L, “[The Phenomenom of Apathy in Man and Animals After the Injection of Viruses in Very High Doses. Clinical Data]“, Rev Med Moyen Orient, 20:539-546, Nov – Dec 1963. Vaccinations and Autism Citations:
Eggers, C, “Autistic Syndrome (Kanner) And Vaccinations against Smallpox”, Klin Paediatr, Mar 1976, 188(2):172-180.
Kiln MR, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.” Lancet 1998 May 2;351(9112):1358.
Selway, “MMR vaccination and autism 1998. Medical practitioners need to give more than reassurance.” BMJ 1998 Jun 13;316(7147):1824.
Nicoll A, Elliman D, Ross E, “MMR vaccination and autism 1998,” MJ 1998 Mar 7;316(7133):715-716.
Lindley K J, Milla PJ, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.”Lancet 1998 Mar 21;351(9106):907-908.
Bedford H, et al, “Autism, inflammatory bowel disease, and MMR vaccine.” Lancet 1998 Mar 21;351(9106):907.
Vijendra K. Singh, Sheren X. Lin, and Victor C. Yang, “Serological Association of Measles Virus and Human Herpesvirus-6 with Brain Autoantibodies in Autism,” Clinical Immunology and Immunopathology, Oct 1998, Vol. 89, No. 1, p 105-108. ["None of the autistic children in the study had measles in the past, but all had the MMR" stated David Whalgren. Vaccines and Demyelination Citations:
Herroelen, L et al, "Central-Nervous-System Demyelination After Immunization with Recombinant Hepatitis B Vaccine", Lancet, Nov 9, 1991, 338(8776):1174-1175.
Kaplanski G, Retornaz F, Durand J, Soubeyrand J, "Central nervous system demyelination after vaccination against hepatitis B and HLA haplotype." J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry 1995 Jun; 58(6):758-759.
Matyszak MK, Perry VH, "Demyelination in the central nervous system following a delayed-type hypersensitivity response to bacillus Calmette-Guerin." Neuroscience 1995 Feb;64(4):967-977.
Tornatore CS, Richert JR, "CNS demyelination associated with diploid cell rabies vaccine." Lancet 1990 Jun 2;335(8701):1346-1347.
Adams, JM et al, "Neuromyelitis Optica: Severe Demyelination Occurring Years After Primary Smallpox Vaccinations", Rev Roum Neurol, 1973, 10:227-231.
In 1988, Dietrich used MRI to show that developmentally delayed children had alterations in their myelin. Coulter described that central nervous system damage can be exhibited as abnormal behavior of the child. In 1935, Thomas Rivers, experimental allergic encephalitis (EAE) can be the result of a viral or bacterial infection of the nervous system. "The fact of the matter is that it is a matter of record that it was known that vaccination produced encephalitis since 1926." The authors stated, "In regions in which there is no organized vaccination of the population, general paralysis is rare. ... It is impossible to deny a connection between vaccinations and the encephalitis (brain damage) which follows it." Vaccines have been linked to seizures, convulsions and epilepsy. Vaccinations and Seizures:
Hirtz DG, Nelson KB, Ellenberg J H, "Seizures following childhood immunizations", Pediatr 1983 Jan; 102(1):14-18.
Cherry JD, Holtzman AE, Shields WD, Buch D, Nielsen, "Pertussis immunization and characteristics related to first seizures in infants and children,"J Pediatr 1993 Jun;122(6):900-903.
Coplan J, "Seizures following immunizations," J Pediatr 1983 Sep;103(3):496.
Barkin RM, Jabhour JT, Samuelson J S, "Immunizations, seizures, and subsequent evaluation," JAMA 1987 Jul 10;258(2):201.
Griffin MR, et al, "Risk of seizures after measles-mumps-rubella immunization," Pediatrics 1991 Nov;88(5):881-885.
Griffin MR, et al, "Risk of seizures and encephalopathy after immunization with the diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine," JAMA 1990 Mar 23-30;263(12):1641-1645.
Cizewska S, Huber Z, Sluzewski W, "[Prophylactic inoculations and seizure activity in the EEG],” Neurol Neurochir Pol 1981 Sep-Dec;15(5-6):553-557. [Article in Polish]
Huttenlocher PR, Hapke RJ, “A follow-up study of intractable seizures in childhood.” Ann Neurol 1990 Nov; 28(5):699-705.
Blumberg DA, “Severe reactions associated with diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine: detailed study of children with seizures, hypotonic-hypo-responsive episodes, high fevers, and persistent crying.”Pediatrics 1993 Jun; 91(6):1158-1165. Vaccinations and Convulsions Citations:
Prensky AL, et al, “History of convulsions and use of pertussis vaccine,” J Pediatr 1985 Aug; 107(2):244-255.
Baraff LJ, “Infants and children with convulsions and hypotonic-hypo-responsive episodes following diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis immunization: follow-up evaluation,” Pediatrics 1988 Jun; 81(6):789-794.
Jacobson V, “Relationship of pertussis immunization to the onset of epilepsy, febrile convulsions and central nervous system infections: a retrospective epidemiologic study,” Tokai J Exp Clin Med 1988;13 Suppl: 137-142.
Cupic V,et al, “[Role of DTP vaccine in the convulsive syndromes in children],” Lijec Vjesn 1978 Jun; 100(6):345-348. [Article in Serbo-Croatian (Roman)]
Pokrovskaia NIa, “[Convulsive syndrome in DPT vaccination (a clinico-experimental study)],” Pediatriia 1983 May;(5):37-39. [Article in Russian] Vaccinations and Epilepsy Citations:
Ballerini, Ricci, B, et al, “On Neurological Complications of Vaccination, With Special Reference to Epileptic Syndromes,” Riv Neurol, Jul-Aug 1973, 43:254-258.
Wolf SM, Forsythe A, “Epilepsy and mental retardation following febrile seizures in childhood,” Acta Paediatr Scand 1989 Mar;78(2):291-295. ________________________________________ Vaccines and Brain Swelling:
Iwasa, S et al, “Swelling of the Brain in Mice Caused by Pertussis … Quantitative Determination and the Responsibility of the Vaccine”, Jpn J Med Sci Biol, 1985 , 38(2):53-65.
Mathur R, Kumari S, “Bulging fontanel following triple vaccine.” Indian Pediatr 1981 Jun;18(6):417-418.
Barry W, Lenney W, Hatcher G, “Bulging fontanelles in infants without meningitis.” Arch Dis Child 1989 Apr;64(4):635-636.
Shendurnikar N, “Bulging fontanel following DPT” Indian Pediatr 1986 Nov;23(11):960.
Gross TP, Milstien JB, Kuritsky JN, “Bulging fontanelle after immunization with diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis vaccine and diphtheria-tetanus vaccine.” J Pediatr 1989 Mar;114(3):423-425.
Jacob J, Mannino F, “Increased intracranial pressure after diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis immunization.” Am J Dis Child 1979 Feb;133(2):217-218.
Dugmore, WN, “Bilateral Oedema at the Posterior Pole. Hypersensitivity Reaction to Alavac P injection.” Br J Ophthalmol, Dec 1972, 55:848-849. Vaccines and Neurological Damage
Nedar P R, and Warren, R J, “Reported Neurological Disorders Following Live Measles Vaccine”, 1968, Ped, 41:997-1001.
Paradiso, G et al, “Multifocal Demyelinating Neuropathy after Tetanus Vaccine”, Medicina (B Aires), 1990, 50(1):52-54.
Landrigan, PJ, Whitte, J, “Neurologic Disorders Following Live Measles-virus Vaccination”, JAMA, Mar 26, 1973, v223(13):1459-1462.
Turnbull, H M, “Encephalomyelitis Following Vaccination”, Brit Jour Exper Path, 7:181, 1926.
Kulenkampff, M et al, “Neurological Complications of Pertussis Inoculation”, Arch Dis Child, 1974, 49:46.
Strom, J, “Further Experience of Reactions, Especially of a Cerebral Nature in Conjunction with Triple Vaccination”, Brit Med Jour, 1967, 4:320-323.
Berg, J M, “Neurological Complications of Pertussis Immunization,” Brit Med Jour, July 5,1958; p 24.
Bondarev, VN et al, “The Changes of the Nervous System in Children After Vaccination”, Pediatria, Jun 1969; 48:20-24.
Badalian, LO, “Vaccinal Lesions of the Nervous System in Children,” Vop Okhr Materin Dets, Dec 1959, 13:54-59
Lorentz, IT, et al, “Post-Vaccinal Sensory Polyneuropathy with Myoclonus”, Proc Aust Ass Neurol, 1969, 6:81-86.
Trump, R C, White, T R, “Cerebellar Ataxia Presumed Due To Live Attenuated Measles Virus Vaccine,” JAMA, 1967, 199:165-166.
Allerdist, H, “Neurological Complications Following Measles Vaccination”, Inter Symp, Brussels, 1978, Development Biol Std, Vol 43, 259-264.
Finley, K H, “Pathogenesis of Encephalitis Occurring With Vaccination, Variola and Measles, Arch Neur and Psychologist, 1938; 39:1047-1054.
Froissart, M et al, “Acute Meningoencephalitis Immediately after an Influenza Vaccination”, Lille Med, Oct 1978, 23(8):548-551.
Pokrovskaia, Nia, et al, “Neurological Complications in Children From Smallpox Vaccination”, Pediatriia, Dec 1978, (12):45-49.
Allerdist, H, “Neurological Complications Following Measles Virus Vaccination. Evaluation of the Cases seen Between 1971-1977″, Monatsschr Kinderheilkd, Jan 1979, 127(1): 23-28.
Ehrengut, W et al, “On Convulsive Reactions Following Oral vaccination Against Polio”, Klin Paediatr, May 1979, 191(3):261-270.
Naumova, R P, et al, “Encephalitis Developing After Vaccination without a Local Skin Reaction”, Vrach Delo, Jul 1979, (7):114-115.
Goswamy, BM, “Neurological Complications After Smallpox Vaccination”, J Ass Phys India, Jan 1969, 17:41-43.
Schchelkunov, SN et al, “The Role of Viruses in the Induction of Allergic Encephalomyelitis,” Dokl Akad Nauk SSSR, 1990,315(1):252-255. [Vaccines contain viruses, too]
Walker AM, “Neurologic events following diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis immunization,” Pediatrics 1988 Mar;81(3):345-349.
Shields WD, et al, “Relationship of pertussis immunization to the onset of neurologic disorders: a retrospective epidemiologic study,” J Pediatr 1988 Nov; 113(5):801-805.
Wilson J, “Proceedings: Neurological complications of DPT inoculation in infancy,” Arch Dis Child 1973 Oct; 48(10):829-830.
Iakunin IuA, “[Nervous system complications in children after preventive vaccinations],” Pediatriia 1968 Nov; 47(11):19-26. [Article in Russian]
Greco D, et al, “Case-control study on encephalopathy associated with diphtheria-tetanus immunization in Campania, Italy,” Bull World Health Organ 1985;63(5):919-925.
Ehrengut W at Institute of Vaccinology and Virology, Hamburg, Germany states, “Bias in the evaluation of CNS complications following pertussis immunization are the following: 1) Notifications of post-immunization adverse events, 2) Publications by vaccine producers on the frequency of adverse reactions, 3) Comparison of permanent brain damage after DPT and DT immunization, 4) Pro-immunization, 5) Immunization associated viral encephalitis, 6) Accuracy of statistics, 7) Personal. A review of these points indicates an underestimation of CNS complications after pertussis immunization.”
Reference: Ehrengut W, “Bias in evaluating CNS complications following pertussis immunization.” Acta Paediatr Jpn, 1991 Aug; 33(4):421-427. Vaccinations and Unexplained Diseases:
Hiner, E E, Frasch, C E, “Spectrum of Disease Due to Haemophilus Influenza Type B Occurring in Vaccinated Children”, J Infect Disorder, 1988 Aug; 158(2): 343-348.
Olin P, Romanus, V, Storsaeter, J, “Invasive Bacterial Infections During an Efficiacy Trial of Acellular Pertussis Vaccines — Implications For Future Surveilance In Pertussis Vaccine Programmes”, Tokai J Exp Clin Med, 1988; 13 Suppl: 143-144.
Storsaeter, J, et al, “Mortality and Morbidity From Invasive Bacterial Infections During a Clinical Trial of Acellular Pertussis Vaccines in Sweden”, Pediatr Infect Disorder J, 1988 Sept; 7(9):637-645.
Vadheim, CM, et al, “Effectiveness and Safety of an Haemophilus Influenzae type b Conjugate Vaccine (PRP-T) in Young Infants. Kaiser-UCLA Vaccine Study Group,” Pediartics, 1993 Aug; 92(2):272-279. [The vaccines caused fevers, irritability, crying, and seizures, but were declared to be "safe and ... effective ... ".]
Stickl, H, “Estimation of Vaccination Damage”, Med Welt, Oct 14, 1972, 23:1495-1497.
Waters, VV, et al, “Risk Factors for Measles in a Vaccinated Population”, JAMA, Mar 27, 1991, 265(12): 1527.
Stickl, H, “Iatrogenic Immuno-suppression as a Result of Vaccination”, Fortschr Med, Mar 5, 1981, 99(9);289-292. Vaccine Citations Linking the Vaccine to the “prevented” Disease:
Nkowane, et al, “Vaccine-Associated Paralytic Poliomyelitis, US 1973 through 1984, JAMA, 1987, Vol 257:1335-1340.
Quast, et al, “Vaccine Induced Mumps-like Diseases”, nd, Int Symp on Immun, Development Bio Stand, Vol 43, p269-272.
Green, C et al, “A Case of Hepatitis Related to Etretinate Therapy and Hepatitis B Vaccine”, Dermatologica, 1991, 182(2):119-120.
Shasby, DM, et al, “Epidemic Measles in Highly Vaccinated Population”, NEJM, Mar 1977, 296(11): 585-589.
Tesovic, G et al, “Aseptic Meningitis after Measles, Mumps and Rubella Vaccine”, Lancet, Jun 12, 1993, 341(8859):1541.
Johnson, RH, et al, “Nosocomial Vaccinia Infection”, West J Med, Oct 1976, 125(4):266-270.
Malengreau, M, “Reappearance of Post-Vaccination Infection of Measles, Rubella, and Mumps. Should Adolescents be re-vaccinated?” Pedaitric, 1992;47(9):597-601 (25 ref)
Basa, SN, “Paralytic Poliomyelitis Following Inoculation With Combined DTP Prophylactic. A review of Sixteen cases with Special Reference to Immunization Schedules in Infancy”, J Indian Med Assoc, Feb 1, 1973, 60:97-99.
Landrigan, PJ et al, “Measles in Previously Vaccinated Children in Illinois”, Ill Med J, Arp 1974, 141:367-372.
NA, “Vaccine-Associated Poliomyelitis”, Med J Aust, Oct 1973, 2:795-796. Vaccine Failures Citations:

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

and more:
Hardy, GE, Jr, et al, “The Failure of a School Immunization Campaign to Terminate an Urban Epidemic of Measles,” Amer J Epidem, Mar 1970; 91:286-293.
Cherry, JD, et al, “A Clinical and Serologic Study of 103 Children With Measles Vaccine Failure”, J Pediatr, May 1973; 82:801-808.
Jilg, W, et al, “Inoculation Failure Following Hepatitis B Vaccination”, Dtsch Med wochenschr, 1990 Oct 12; 115(41):1514-1548.
Plotkin, SA, “Failures of Protection by Measles Vaccine,” J Pediatr, May 1973; 82:798-801.
Bolotovskii, V, et al, “Measles Incidence Among Children Properly Vaccinated Against This Infection”, ZH Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol, 1974; 00(5):32-35.
Landrigan, PJ, et al, “Measles in Previously Vaccinated Children in Illinois”, Ill Med J, Apr 1974; 141:367-372.
Strebel, P et al, “An Outbreak of Whooping Cough in a Highly Vaccinated Urban Community”, J Trop Pediatr, Mar 1991, 37(2): 71-76.
Forrest, JM, et al, “Failure of Rubella Vaccination to Prevent Congenital Rubella,”Med J Aust, 1977 Jan 15; 1(3): 77.
Jilg, W, “Unsuccessful Vaccination against Hepatitis B”, Dtsch Med Wochenschr, Nov 16, 1990, 115(46):1773.
Coles, FB, et al, “An Outbreak of Influenza A (H3N2) in a Well-Immunized Nursing home Population,” J Am ger Sociologist, Jun 1992, 40(6):589-592.
Jilg, W, et al, “Inoculation Failure following Hepatitis B Vaccination,” Dtsch Med Wochenschr, Oct 12, 1990, 115(41):1545-1548.
Hartmann, G et al, “Unsuccessful Inoculation against Hepatitis B,” Dtsch Med Wochenschr, May 17, 1991, 116(20): 797.
Buddle, BM et al, “Contagious Ecthyma Virus-Vaccination Failures”, Am J Vet Research, Feb 1984, 45(2):263-266.
Mathias, R G, “Whooping Cough In Spite of Immunization”, Can J Pub Health, 1978 Mar/Apr; 69(2):130-132.
Osterholm, MT, et al, “Lack of Efficacy of Haemophilus b Polysacharide Vaccine in Minnesota”, JAMA, 1988 Sept 9; 260(10:1423-1428.
Johnson, RH, et al, “Nosocomial Vaccinia Infection”, West J Med, Oct 1976, 125(4):266-270. Vaccines Causing Another Vaccinal Disease:
Basa, SN, “Paralytic Poliomyelitis Following Inoculation With Combined DTP Prophylactic. A review of Sixteen cases with Special Reference to Immunization Schedules in Infancy”, J Indian Med Assoc, Feb 1, 1973, 60:97-99.
Pathel, JC, et al, “Tetanus Following Vaccination Against Small-pox”, J Pediatr, Jul 1960; 27:251-263.
Favez, G, “Tuberculous Superinfection Following a Smallpox Re-Vaccination”, Praxis, July 21, 1960; 49:698-699.
Quast, Ute, and Hennessen, “Vaccine-Induced Mumps-like Diseases”, Intern Symp on Immunizations , Development Bio Stand, Vol 43, p 269-272.
Forrest, J M, et al, “Clinical Rubella Eleven months after Vaccination,” Lancet, Aug 26, 1972, 2:399-400.
Dittman, S, “Atypical Measles after Vaccination”, Beitr Hyg Epidemiol, 19891, 25:1-274 (939 ref)
Sen S, et al, “Poliomyelitis in Vaccinated Children”, Indian Pediatr, May 1989, 26(5): 423-429.
Arya, SC, “Putative Failure of Recombinant DNA Hepatitis B Vaccines”, Vaccine, Apr 1989, 7(2): 164-165.
Lawrence, R et al, “The Risk of Zoster after Varicella Vaccination in Children with Leukemia”, NEJM, Mar 3, 1988, 318(9): 543-548. Vaccination Citations and Death
Na, “DPT Vaccination and Sudden Infant Death – Tennessee, US Dept HEW, MMWR Report, Mar 23, 1979, vol 28(11): 132.
Arevalo, “Vaccinia Necrosum. Report on a Fatal Case”, Bol Ofoc Sanit Panamer, Aug 1967, 63:106-110.
Connolly, J H, Dick, G W, Field, CM, “A Case of Fatal Progressive Vaccinia”, Brit Med Jour, 12 May 1962; 5288:1315-1317.
Aragona, F, “Fatal Acute Adrenal Insufficiency Caused by Bilateral Apoplexy of the Adrenal Glands (WFS) following Anti-poliomyelitis Vaccination”, Minerva Medicolegale, Aug 1960; 80:167-173.
Moblus, G et al, “Pathological-Anatomical Findings in Cases of Death Following Poliomyelitis and DPT Vaccination”, Dtsch Gesundheitsw, Jul 20, 1972, 27:1382-1386.
NA, “Immunizations and Cot Deaths”, Lancet, Sept 25, 1982, np.
Goetzeler, A, “Fatal Encephalitis after Poliomyelitis Vaccination”, 22 Jun 1961, Muenchen Med Wschr, 102:1419-1422.
Fulginiti, V, “Sudden Infant Death Syndrome, Diphtheria-Tetanus Toxoid-Pertussis Vaccination and Visits to the Doctor: Chance Association or Cause and Effect?”, Pediatr Infect Disorder, Jan-Feb 1983, 2(1): 7-11.
Baraff, LJ, et al, “Possible Temporal Association Between Diphtheria-tetanus toxoid-Pertussis Vaccination and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome”, Pediatr Infect Disorder, Jan-Feb 1983, 2(1): 5-6.
Reynolds, E, “Fatal Outcome of a Case of Eczema Vaccinatum”, Lancet, 24 Sept 1960, 2:684-686.
Apostolov. et al, “Death of an Infant in Hyperthermia After Vaccination”, J Clin Path, Mar 1961, 14:196-197.
Bouvier-Colle, MH, “Sex-Specific Differences in Mortality After High-Titre Measles Vaccination”, Rev Epidemiol Sante Publique, 1995; 43(1): 97.
Stewart GT, “Deaths of infants after triple vaccine.”, Lancet 1979 Aug 18;2(8138):354-355.
Flahault A, “Sudden infant death syndrome and diphtheria/tetanus toxoid/pertussis/poliomyelitis immunisation.”, Lancet 1988 Mar 12;1(8585):582-583.
Larbre, F et al, “Fatal Acute Myocarditis After Smallpox Vaccination”, Pediatrie, Apr-May 1966, 21:345-350.
Mortimer EA Jr, “DTP and SIDS: when data differ”, Am J Public Health 1987 Aug; 77(8):925-926. Vaccines and Metabolism Citations:
Deutsch J, ” [Temperature changes after triple-immunization in infant age],” Padiatr Grenzgeb 1976;15(1):3-6. [Article in German]
NA, “[Temperature changes after triple immunization in childhood],” Padiatr Grenzgeb 1976;15(1):7-10. [Article in German]
[Considering that the thyroid controls our Basal Metabolism, it would appear that vaccines altered (depressed) thyroid activity.] Vaccines Altering Resistance to Disease:
Burmistrova AL, “[Change in the non-specific resistance of the body to influenza and acute respiratory diseases following immunization diphtheria-tetanus vaccine],” Zh Mikrobiol Epidemiol Immunobiol 1976; (3):89-91. [Article in Russian] Vaccinations and Deafness Citations: So I did a background check to see if there was any scientific evidence linking vaccines to deafness and hearing loss. Here are some of the articles I found:
Kaga, “Unilateral Total Loss of Auditory and Vestibular Function as a Complication of Mumps Vaccination”, Int J Ped Oto, Feb 1998, 43(1):73-73
Nabe-Nielsen, Walter, “Unilateral Total Deafness as a Complication of the Measles- Mumps- Rubella Vaccination”, Scan Audio Suppl, 1988, 30:69-70
Hulbert, et al, “Bilateral Hearing Loss after Measles and Rubella Vaccination in an Adult”, NEJM, 1991 July, 11;325(2):134
Healy, “Mumps Vaccine and Nerve Deafness”, Am J Disorder Child, 1972 Jun; 123(6):612
Jayarajan, Sedler, “Hearing Loss Following Measles Vaccination”, J Infect, 1995 Mar; 30(2):184-185
Pialoux, P et al, “Vaccinations and Deafness”, Ann Otolaryng (Paris), Dec 1963, 80:1012-1013.
Angerstein, W, et al, “Solitary Hearing and Equilibrium Damage After Vaccinations”, Gesundheitswesen, May 1995, 57(5): 264-268.
Brodsky, Stanievich, “Sensorineural Hearing Loss Following Live Measles Virus Vaccination”, Int J Ped Oto, 1985 Nov; 10(2):159-163
Koga, et al, “Bilateral Acute Profound Deafness After MMR Vaccination- Report of a Case”, Nippon Jibiin Gakkai Kai, 1991 Aug;94(8):1142-5
Seiferth, LB, “Deafness after Oral Poliomyelitis Vaccination – a Case Report and Review”, HNO, 1977 Aug; 25(8): 297-300
Pantazopoulos, PE, “Perceptive Deafness Following Prophylactic use of Tetanus anittoxin”, Laryngoscope, Dec 1965, 75:1832-1836.
Zimmerman, W, “Observation of a case of Acute Bilateral Hearing Impairment Following Preventive Poliomyelitis Vaccination (type 3)”, Arch Ohr Nas Kehlkopfheilk, 1965, 185:723-725. Vaccinations and Kidney Disorders Citations:
Jacquot, C et al, “Renal Risk in Vaccination”, Nouv Presse Med, Nov 6, 1982, 11(44):3237-3238.
Giudicelli, et al, “Renal Risk in Vaccination”, Presse Med, Jun 11, 1982, 12(25):1587-1590.
Tan, SY, et al, “Vaccine Related Glomerulonephritis”, BMJ, Jan 23, 1993, 306(6872):248.
Pillai, JJ, et al, “Renal Involvement in Association with Post-vaccination Varicella”, Clin Infect Disorder, Dec 1993, 17(6): 1079-1080.
Eisinger, AJ et al, “Acute Renal Failure after TAB and Cholera Vaccination”, B Med J, Feb 10, 1979, 1(6160):381-382.
Silina, ZM, et al, “Causes of Postvaccinal Complications in the Kidneys in Young Infants”, Pediatria, Dec 1978, (12):59-61.
Na, “Albuminurias”, Concours Med, Mar 1964, 85:5095-5098. [vaccination adverse reactions]
Oyrl, A, et al, “Can Vaccinations Harm the Kidney?”, Clin Nephrol, 1975, 3(5):204-205.
Mel’man Nia, “[Renal lesions after use of vaccines and sera].” Vrach Delo 1978 Oct;(10):67-9, [Article in Russian]
Silina ZM, Galaktionova TIa, Shabunina NR, “[Causes of postvaccinal complications in the kidneys in young infants].” Pediatriia 1978 Dec;(12):59-61, [Article in Russian]
Silina EM, et al, “[Some diseases of the kidneys in children during the 1st year of life, following primary smallpox vaccination and administration of pertusis-diphtheria-tetanus vaccine].” Vopr Okhr Materin Det 1968 Mar; 13(3):79-80, [Article in Russian] Vaccines and Skin Disorders Citations:
Illingsworth R, Skin rashes after triple vaccine,” Arch Dis Child 1987 Sep; 62(9):979.
Lupton GP, “Discoid lupus erythematosus occurring in a smallpox vaccination scar,” J Am Acad Dermatol, 1987 Oct; 17(4):688-690.
Kompier, A J, “Some Skin Diseases caused by Vaccinia Virus [Smallpox],” Ned Milt Geneesk T, 15:149-157, May 1962.
Weber, G et al, “Skin Lesions Following Vaccinations,” Deutsch Med Wschr, 88:1878-1886, S7 Sept 1963.
Copeman, P W, “Skin Complications of Smallpox Vaccination,” Practitioner, 197:793-800, Dec 1966.
Denning, DW, et al, “Skin Rashes After Triple Vaccine,” Arch Disorder Child, May 1987, 62(5): 510-511. Vaccinations and Abcesses:
Sterler, HC, et al, “Outbreaks of Group A Steptococcal Abcesses Following DTP Vaccination”, Pediatrics, Feb 1985, 75(2):299-303.
DiPiramo, D, et al, “Abcess Formation at the Site of Inoculation of Calmette-Guerin Bacillus (BCG),” Riv Med Aeronaut Spaz, Jul-Dec 1981, 46(3-4):190-199. Vaccinations and Shock:
Caileba, A et al, “Shock associated with Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation Syndrome following Injection of DT.TAB Vaccine, Prese Med, Sept 15, 1984, 13(3):1900. Vaccines: The Weird, The Wild and The Hilarious Citations: Sometimes there are articles published about the strangest facts related to vaccines that defies our imagination and ability to understand them. They were written seriously by well-meaning scientific persons, but their titles can be seen differently. Some are funny, some are sad and some are purely scientific folly. See if you can figure these out:
Pathel, JC, et al, “Tetanus Following Vaccination Against Small-pox”, J Pediatr, Jul 1960; 27:251-263. [Now you need a tetanus vaccination!]
Favez, G, “Tuberculous Superinfection Following a Smallpox Re-Vaccination”, Praxis, July 21, 1960; 49:698-699. [Super means large/big/great!]
Bonifacio, A et al, “Traffic Accidents as an expression of “Iatrogenic damage”, Minerva Med, Feb 24, 1971, 62:735-740. [But officer I was just vaccinated!]
Baker, J et al, “Accidental Vaccinia: Primary Inoculation of a Scrotum”, Clin Pediatr (Phila), Apr 1972, 11:244-245. [Ooops, the needle slipped.]
Edwards, K, “Danger of Sunburn Following Vaccination”, Papua New Guinea Med J, Dec 1977, 20(4):203. [Are vaccines phototoxic?]
Stroder, J, “Incorrect Therapy in Children”, Folia Clin Int (Barc), Feb 1966, 16:82-90. [Agreed.]
Wehrle PF, “Injury associated with the use of vaccines,” Clin Ther 1985;7(3):282-284. [Dah!]
Alberts ME, “When and where will it stop”, Iowa Med 1986 Sep; 76(9):424. [When!]
Breiman RF, Zanca JA, “Of floors and ceilings — defining, assuring, and communicating vaccine safety”, Am J Public Health 1997 Dec;87(12):1919-1920. [What is in between floors and ceilings?]
Stewart, AM, et al, “Aetiology of Childhood Leukaemia”, Lancet, 16 Oct, 1965, 2:789-790.
Nelson, ST, “John Hutchinson On Vaccination Syphilis (Hutchinson, J)”, Arch Derm, (Chic), May 1969, 99:529-535. [Vaccinations and STDs!]
Mather, C, “Cotton Mather Anguishes Over the Consequences of His Son’s Inoculation Against Smallpox”, Pediatrics, May 1974; 53:756. [Is it for or against?]
Thoman M, “The Toxic Shot Syndrome”, Vet Hum Toxicol, Apr 1986, 28(2):163-166. [Animals are not exempt from vaccination damage either!]
Johnson, RH, et al, “Nosocomial Vaccinia Infection”, West J Med, Oct 1976, 125(4):266-270. [Nosocomial means a disease acquired in a doctor's office or hospital.]
Heed, JR, “Human Immunization With Rabies Vaccine in Suckling Mice Brain,” Salud Publica, May-Jun 1974, 16(3): 469-480. [Have you had your suckling mice brains today?]
Tesovic, G et al, “Aseptic Meningitis after Measles, Mumps and Rubella Vaccine”, Lancet, Jun 12, 1993, 341(8859):1541. [AM has same symptoms as poliomyelitis!]
Buddle, BM et al, “Contagious Ecthyma Virus-Vaccination Failures”, Am J Vet Research, Feb 1984, 45(2):263-266.
Freter, R et al, “Oral Immunization And Production of Coproantibody in Human Volunteers”, J Immunol, Dec 1963, 91:724-729. [Guess what copro- means .... Feces.]
NA, “Vaccination, For and Against”, 1964, Belg T Geneesk, 20:125-130. [Is it for or against?]
Sahadevan, MG et al, “Post-vaccinal Myelitis”, J Indian Med Ass, Feb 16, 1966, 46:205-206. [Did I mention myelitis?]
Castan, P et al, “Coma Revealing an acute Leukosis in a child, 15 days after an Oral Anti-poliomyelitis Vaccination,” Acta Neurol Bekg, May 1965, 65:349-367. [Coma from vaccines!]
Stickl, H, et al, “Purulent [pus] meningitides Following Smallpox Vaccination. On the Problem of Post- Vaccinal Decrease of Resistance”, Deutsch Med Wschr, Jul 22, 1966, 91:1307-1310. [Vaccines are the injection of viruses cultured from pus ... ]

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

No, it is completely accurate. The "vaccine courts" cases won are paid by the government, not by the pharmaceutical industry. The pharmaceutical industry is involved only by paying lawyers and experts.

So you have the government in charge of a court case, and the same government is in charge of overseeing the vaccination program, and that committee is staffed by representatives of the vaccine manufacturers.

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

That's great and all, but jumping from the conclusion that vaccines "can" cause problems -- like EVERY medical therapy in existence -- to concluding that it probably "does" cause autism SPECIFICALLY is an untenable leap of logic.

This is like saying, "Well we KNOW that cigarette smoking causes lung cancer. And cigarette smoking used to be pretty prevalent in this country. And we also know diabetes is more common now than it ever has been. Therefore, how can you NOT conclude that cigarette smoking is causing the diabetes crisis in this country?"

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

No, it is FALSE. Here is the relevant portion from a New England Journal of Medicine article from 2007, but it's an interesting read for anyone who wants to learn more about it. In fact, there is a whole discussion about lawsuits regarding allegations of vaccine-related causes for autism:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/13/1275

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Woops! Sorry, the pro-only science guys can't be using anecdotes here. Doing so just impugns the thesis!

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

But, wino, how does that work when the parents have to sign a paper at the doctor's office, saying that we understand that the doctor and manufacturer are not liable for any adverse effects? (Even though the only adverse effects we are warned of at the time are mild swelling, discomfort, and fever...)

We are trapped here. Many pediatricians refuse to take your child on as a patient unless he is completely caught up on vaccines, although it does seem that more and more pediatricians are starting to "get it" as more of THEM are having children who react to vaccines...

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Seriously, Wino, I am looking forward to reading your anatomically-correct explanations for these upper cervical cases of recovery from Meniere's.

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Molecular mechanism of autoimmune hearing loss.
Yoo TJ, Du X, Kwon SS.

Department of Medicine, University of Tennessee Health Science Center, Memphis 38163, USA. [email protected]

Abstract
Molecules considered as autoantigens in autoimmune sensorineural hearing loss and Meniere's diseases are type II collagens, type IX collagens, 30 kD proteins of inner ear membranes, laminin, 68 kD proteins of inner ear, PO protein, Raf I protein and beta-tubulin are reviewed in relation to molecular mechanisms of autoimmune injury of inner ear resulting in hearing loss.

With regard to science based verses results based studies and it's connection to Meniere's and other autoimmune diseases, how do either of you Scott/Hank, or anyone involved in this particular discussion, describe the scientific abstract given above?

I have brought up kilodalton 68 before on this website with regard to it being an acutal blood test associated with Meniere's and and have never gotten any feed back. Maybe this is the right post to bring this up?? I was tested using this particular blood test and it came back positive. Now this, associated with the well known ailments we all suffer with Meniere's (except for severe vertigo in my case), is actual scientific based evidence that there is an association between the two. Would either of you consider this anecdotal?

And, with regard to this debate. It has been repeated in other posts as far as comfirming that if something that is incurable gets cured, you never had it (Meniere's in this case) in the first place but something that mimiced the disease.

What does it matter in the end if it is science based or results based if it gives relief to those who try it. I personnely tried the chiropractic approach and it changed nothing (except now I have a twitch in my arm that I've never had before ) - But I've never thought for one minute that those whom this type of non-invasive manipulation works, have truely found something that helped what ailed them, whatever it was - if indeed there is no cure for Meniere's.

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

I found Dr Rauch's videos about various disorders that cause balance problems very helpful. After watching all of them I could see very easily how chiropractic might help if you had cervical vertigo and something else might help if you had something else. His video's do give some pointers on distinguishing between these things. The most fuzzy of all of course was MM, which he pretty much described as wonky ear, none of the above. I have felt all along that the debate about what was true MM and what wasn't true MM and what was the one true cause and cure for MM were merely things to argue about when people felt like arguing because it seems abundantly clear that there are numerous things going on and as Hain says when the inner ear goes wrong it usually manifests itself in the same way no matter what caused it to go wrong. So we can argue when in the mood, but most people who haven't yet found what is going to help them probably have little patience for these how many angels can sit on the head of a pin type discussions. Perhaps I am just too stupid to see their import.

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

I disagree with this comment for a number of reasons. First, there is an enormous difference between using anecdote to establish cause/effect, and using anecdote to share an experience.

Secondly, and I speak for myself only here as an alleged "pro-science" guy, I am of the firm opinion that if something works for you -- whether there seems to be any rhyme or reason to it -- then go ahead and do it. If you believe Tic Tacs have cured you of your symptoms, and you are indeed symtpom free, who am I to tell you that Tic Tacs are not your personal cure? I would, however, take exception to someone advocating Tic Tacs as "the" answer to resolving Meniere's given that there is really no scientific basis that Tic Tacs have any medicinal properties whatsoever.

Thirdly, in order for a person to conclude that a treatment is "results-based," there has to be some reason for that person to arrive at the cause and effect conclusion. You had NUCCA treatment and shortly thereafter your symptoms resolved. From that alone, you have drawn an inference that A is related to B, and attempted to explain that. There are times where that nexus makes sense, and times where it doesn't. If you ate tuna salad for dinner and you wake up the next day with vomitting and diarrhea, it is "reasonable" to conclude that you had some bad tuna salad. However, you have not ruled out a stomach flu, gall stones, pancreatitis, appendicitis, etc. It might make sense to reach out for the simplest explanation (Occam's razor), but it doesn't mean anything necessarily.

Finally, and most importantly, in a debate with folks who choose to rely on anecdotal evidence, it is EXTREMELY relevant to bring up instances of anecdotal evidence that yielded the exact opposite result of what is being claimed. In other words, Hank, you can come here and say, "I had a horrible problem, and after NUCCA therapy I'm cured. Therefore, it must have worked." But how would that jibe with a theoretical poster who comes in and says, "I had a problem and I had NUCCA therapy, and I felt 10 times worse after NUCCA than I did before. Therefore, NUCCA makes Meniere's disease even worse."? What makes your anecdotal evidence any better than the theoretical poster's anecdotal evidence? That theoretical poster would have the same "results-based" data as you with a completely different conclusion. Why would you be right and he be wrong? So, no, sorry, but opposing anecdotal evidence is quite relevant in this debate, especially for the pro-science guys.

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Okay, Hank, I will start with this portion of one of your posts that caught my attention:

First things first: basic anatomy. As you know, there is a difference between spinal nerves and cranial nerves. The spinal nerves are those that shoot out from the spine through the foramen at each level of the cervical, thoracic and lumbar spine, and each of these nerve roots have associated dermatomes for which they control sensory and motor issues. The cranial nerves -- of which there are 12 -- originate in the brain itself. There is NO direct link between the cranial nerves and the spine. In other words, unlike spinal nerves that exit the foramen and are subject to mechanical impingement by disc abnormalities, the cranial nerves do not exit from the spinal column. 10 out of the 12 cranial nerves originate in the brain stem, including the 8th cranial nerve that is repsonsible for hearing and balance. (The two nerves that don't originate in the brain stem are irrelevant to this discussion).

The brain stem sits at the top of the spinal column. As noted above, every level of the cervical spine correlates with a dermatome. So that if, for example, you have pathology at the level of C-2 (there are 7 -- some say 8 -- different levels of the c-spine, and they are designated by number starting at the top and going downwards), you might get headaches because C-2 innervates the muscles on the back of the head and scalp. There is no known dermatome for C-1. And there is no such thing as the spine "impinging" on the brain stem in the absence of injury so severe that you are either dead or quadriplegic. The 8th cranial nerve does not exit the spine, and cannot be impinged by pathology in the spine.

The 8th cranial nerve's source is bundled in the brain stem along with all 9 of the other cranial nerves. If there were some brain stem "impingement" going on affecting the ROOT of the 8th cranial nerve, you would have symptomatology across the entire range of the cranial nerves and/or you would have a brain stem stroke. I can think of theoretical explanations for how one cranial nerve root could theoretically have a problem (i.e. -- a very, very, very tiny cyst that cannot be detected on imaging), but I don't think any such case has ever been reported.

You then went on to note:

This makes sense with exactly what I laid out above, in that insult to the brain stem would cause problems along several cranial nerve roots. It wouldn't affect only a single cranial nerve if there was somehow an "impingement" of the brain stem. Even if you believed it was merely impingement of the vertebral artery carrying oxygen to the brain stem, you would have the same multi-nerve problem. And, this anecdote you've shared about Winde's issues, if anything, contradict your theory that brain stem impingement can exist and affect only a single cranial nerve root.

You then stated:

This statement is inaccurate on two fronts. First, you did not "actually determine" what was causing your symptoms at all. You had a treatment that worked for reasons nobody can actually explain. Therefore, the "cause" of the success is still in question. Second, assuming for argument's sake that you defined the cause of your symptoms, you're letting semantics cloud your thought process. Identifying the source of the symptoms does NOT disqualify the Meniere's diagnosis at all. The reason that the term "of unknown origin" is used in defining Meniere's is simply that nobody has yet discovered the underlying pathology for MM once the "usual suspects" have been ruled out. For example, if you have an acoustic neuroma causing your problems and it has been diagnised by MRI, then you remove the neuroma and the MM is "gone." So doctors look for the usual reasons for hearing loss -- bone destruction, trauma, neuromas, cancer, etc -- and if none of those are present then Meniere's is the diagnosis. However, if we assume that doctors "proved" herpes was the cause, it doesn't mean that everyone with a herpetic ear infection is excluded from the MM diagnosis.

There is quite a bit more to address, but I will end the first installment here.

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

I think this is very interesting:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/medical-research-lies-dam_b_555525.html

"Marcia Angell, MD, the former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine and author of the powerful book The Truth about Drug Companies, said it plainly and directly: "Trials can be rigged in a dozen ways, and it happens all the time" (Angell, 2004, 95).

She further expresses real concern about research reliability:

It is simply no longer possible to believe much of the clinical research that is published, or to rely on the judgment of trusted physicians or authoritative medical guidelines. I take no pleasure in this conclusion, which I reached slowly and reluctantly over my two decades as an editor of The New England Journal of Medicine. As reprehensible as many industry practices are, I believe the behavior of much of the medical profession is even more culpable.
Angell gives many examples of why reading research studies is not reliable:

A review of 74 clinical trials of antidepressants, for example, found that 37 of 38 positive studies were published. But of the thirty-six negative studies, thirty-three were either not published or published in a form that conveyed a positive outcome (Turner, 2008)."

and

"Even "Good" Research is Often Bad
Medications that can allay pain or any type of serious discomfort are a great blessing, but let's not fool ourselves into believing that modern pain drugs are curative agents. In fact, although they provide blessed short-term relief, they create their own pathology, addiction, and demand for increasing doses over time.

Such pain relief is akin to unscrewing a warning light in your car. It does turn off that irritating light, though it does nothing to change the underlying problem.

However, when a drug company's scientific trial "proves" that their drug reduces pain, it then markets this treatment as "scientifically proven" and is able to sell the drug to doctors and to consumers with a marketable spin that makes them the big bucks. What is so brilliant about the cozy relationship that drug companies have with "science" is that most people have insurance these days and don't have to pay out-of-pocket for these "proven" drugs. Even though their (and our) insurance premiums sky-rocket, many employers distance the patient from the real costs of paying the bill.

It is so impressive how proving that one can use conventional drugs to "unscrew a warning light" can make big big bucks. My previous article noted that the combined profits ($35.9 billion) of the ten largest drug companies in the Fortune 500 in 2002 were more than the combined profits ($33.7 billion) of the remaining 490 companies together (Angell, 2004, 11). In a civilized world, no industry should have this amount of profit without being considered a criminal enterprise.

And let's also not fool ourselves into believing that conventional medical treatment is the sole method of providing pain relief. Back in 1983, I coined the term "medical chauvinism" as a common assumption that there is only one type of education with which to learn the science and art of healing or that there is only one type of health professional suitable to provide health care (Ullman, 1983a; 1983b). Despite its recent prevalence, medical chauvinism is an anomaly historically and internationally.

Equally problematic to medical chauvinism is "scientism," which is the common assumption that science is the only way to acquire knowledge about reality. There is a great amount of human experience that cannot be tested in a "double-blind and placebo controlled trial," and the lack of "scientific evidence" for these experiences does not make them invalid, unproven, or non-existent."

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Next point from Hank:

Perhaps that migth be your discussion with Scott, but this does not apply to the discussion from my perspective. I've stated a few times now that no approach should be automatically discounted at all. Only that proselityzing about it should be held in check when we don't even know whether: 1) the approach is what actually worked; and/or 2) if it did work, WHY it worked. If I grant you the first part for argument's sake, it still is of very little benefit to others unless they have any palpable reason to think that their problems are being caused by the exact same things that caused your problems.

Like I said, if you post on this board, suffer with MM and have the means to give NUCCA a shot, go ahead and give it a try. However, it is not without its risks, so be educated about it. On the other hand, there are several people on this board who don't have the luxury/means of wasting limited resources chasing the next big thing. You, Hank, individually might care about that and even offer to help folks. But the same benevolence cannot be expected from those who stand to profit monetarily from the treatment. If the NUCCA practitioner tells you it might take 6 months of treatment, only to get to the end of 6 months with no improvement, is he going to refund you your money? Of course not, because neither doctors nor chiropractors are guarantors that their treatments will work.

And let me tell you folks something about chiropractors, for as many aspersions as Hank and Taximom cast on the medical community about being money-hungry and putting profits over people, you would be sick to your stomach to see the levels of outright fraud and deception that permeates the chiropractic community. From abuse of no-fault auto insurance proceeds, to forming alliances with plaintiffs' attorneys to direct patient care for profit, to telling people that chiropractic treatment can cure autism and Turret's syndrome, and on and on and on. There are plenty of great chiropractors out there. But I am willing to bet that there is the same proportion of shysters in the chiropractic field as there are medical doctors in the medical field. What's more, there is a current push by the chiropractic community to lobby legislatures to pass laws allowing them to prescribe pain medications. What does that tell you about their commitment to alternative medicine?

So all I am saying is that the fact that you have a jaundiced eye towards the "medical" community -- which, incidentally, I consider chiropractors and podiatrists to be part of the medical community -- should not lead you to the unwarranted conclusion that information from "non-medical" folks is automatically more credible. Just use that same jaundiced eye as a filter to what some of the folks are trying to tell you.

P.S. -- And this is to Taximom, as fate would have it Dr. Wakefield lost his British medical license today.