Science Based v. Results Based Treatments for Chronic Idiopathic Symptoms

Discussion in 'Your Living Room' started by Henrysullivan, May 21, 2010.

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  1. joy

    joy New Member

    Nah, too much work to read that thread. I'll just lurk around here for a while & nip at a few ankles.
  2. hollymm

    hollymm Me, 'in' a tree.

    Hey Hank,

    Is there much prejudice out there against blue people? And such a pretty blue too! ;D
  3. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    I believe this thread is the appropriated venue for the discussion Scott just regurgitated, not Wino's NUCCA thread.
  4. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    I agree, James. That is the purpose ot this thread, to give Scott, or anyone, a dedicated space to make whatever arguments they want to about the efficacy of results-based treatments. And this is where the discussion should take place, not contaminating someone's earnest efforts to treat their conditions. This is the place.
  5. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    This post moved from Wino's NUCCA thread.


    You write, "I started AO Chiro 1 year after my symptoms flared up again. I went on a lo-salt diet & diuretics after my first 2 attacks in 2005 and I went into remission for 2 years." Nwspin, you know that a lo-salt diet & diuretics is no cure for Meniere's symptoms. You know that. Medical science tells you that straight up. Had you undertaken chiro when these symptoms first manifested, which is what I advocate, or JOH, which is what he advocates, after the first attack, you would be no worse off than you are now. Instead you went on a lo-salt diet & diuretics, for two years, which did nothing to treat the cause of your symptoms, whatever that cause was, or is, only to find that being on the margin at the time, your symptoms lessened. You treated the symptoms and not the cause. You say, "So I would have to say that I should have listened to the real expert (my doctor) instead of the pseudo doctors on this website." Well, that is precisely what you did, for two years, all the while the cause of your symptoms resulted in more and more tissue damage, to the point that a dam of symptoms began flooding into your life. So where have I missed it, Nwspin? I did not write that folks who begin with Meniere's symptoms, should wait for two years and try chiropractic. No I said that they should try it immediately, as if triage in an emergency room. You did not do that. Where have I missed it?

    You write, "Henry, do you want to take responsibility for my damaged system or maybe JOH should since none of your treatments worked even though they are heavily promoted and pushed here and of course if it’s not working both of you push the notion that “you need to give it more time”. If you are going to take responsibility for any successes with the treatments you promote you then must be willing to take responsibility for any failure of those treatments along with the long term damage they caused by delaying treatments recommended by real doctors that will take the responsibility for their treatments."

    That's quite a head of steam you have going, Nwspin, quite. And I know you well enough to know that you are NOT bitter, simply speaking what enters your mind. And that is fine. And I am not bitter either. So let's talk about the idea of taking responsibility, and then promoting and pushing a treatment--first, my own personal responsibility for success or failure. Tell me where I have ever taken any responsibility for anyone's success. If I take responsibility, I profit in some way from success and pay in a similar fashion for failure. That is what personal responsibility is, personal profit or loss from one's actions. I revel at successes. I delight in them. I have received thanks from folks when they succeed. And I accept whatever thanks as graciously as I know how, many times pointing out that success is born from an individual's attitude that manifests as willingness to try different treatments, reasonably believed to have helped others with similar symptoms. But responsibility? Where have I profited from success from which to rightfully pay for the lack thereof, Nwspin? Furthermore, how can I be held responsible for someone's lifelong injuries that even chiropractic is unable to repair? I have no way of affecting any of this. Wino, for example, has had three major auto accidents over two decades. I have no idea whether chiropractic can put him back together, no more than I might put Humpty Dumpty together. So if this treatment course does not end in success, how am I responsible? What about the doctors who got paid and who failed to even render a Meniere's diagnosis for a full seven years? How are they taking responsibility?

    Perhaps you refer to blame. Blame is conferred by others on one who is blamed. Perhaps I have been blamed for various successes or failures. Perhaps I have been conferred with favor for successes and disfavor for non-successes. This appears to be what you are doing, blaming, blaming me in fact. But responsibility requires action by the one responsible. To be responsible for success, I must accept certain favors for my role in the successes. In other words, I get paid and accept payment. That way, when someone does not succeed in the treatment, I have a stash of favor from which to dispense compensation to folks whose health might in some way be deemed to suffer from taking my advice. So where is compensation in all of this? Plainly it does not exist. So for this reason, I can only believe that you speak not of responsibility, but of blame. It sounds like you are content to blame me for any damage to your inner ear. So who is responsible here for that damage? Well, to answer that, we must establish who got paid for their failure. The only one I see who was paid, and who resolutely failed, was the doctor who wrote you off, knowing the truth of Meniere's symptoms, and prescribed a low-salt diet and diuretics, for two years! You trusted that treatment for two years, at the end of which, the damage to your inner ear was profound enough that you developed irreversible symptoms. How can I even be blamed for that, Nwspin, much less take responsibility? That was your decision. You listened to the doctor and did what he said. I wasn't even around at the time and had at that point never even heard of the term, "Meniere's." So how can I be responsible for your decision to do absolutely nothing to discover the cause of your symptoms, for two years, being content that all was fine and you were in good hands listening to your doctor? How? That one really mystifies me.

    You write of, "treatments recommended by real doctors that will take the responsibility for their treatments." So tell me, Nwspin, what compensation your original doctor has given you for prescribing a low salt diet and diuretics for a condition that he knows is not caused by salt or a well-hydrated body? He took the money and prescribed something he knew was worthless toward successfully treating the cause of your symptoms. Where is the compensation? If you want to blame someone, there's your man, Nwspin. He's the guy who did nothing while your world was falling apart and you didn't even know it. And where is the responsibilty for a possible failed surgery, Nwspin? Frankly, you contracted away his responsibility before you went under. You agreed that he would NOT be responsibile for success OR failure. And as far as I am concerned, just as many folks have failed surgeries as successful one's. That seems to be a pretty good rule of thumb on this site. So when you, Nwspin, well-respected Meniere's sufferer, tell folks to blanketly trust their doctors, instead of immediately upon symptom arrival trying various non-invasive treatments, reasonably believed from the experiences of others to actually get to the cause of the symptoms, are you going to take responsibility for the success or failure of that approach if they take your advice? Are by your words you advocating surgery first? What sense is that? You did what your doctor said do for two years, Nwspin, and it did not work! Yet you blame me? I'll stop there.

    All right, your last paragraph...You wrote, "When you say "I say chiropractic first, because it is the only one of these treatments which even has a chance to completely eradicate the cause of one's symptoms." are you back to advocating that there is no other cause of Meniere's, that other treatments like JOH regime is a waste of time, that viruses can’t cause Meniere’s?" Answer: I think I was pretty plain here, Nwspin. I said "first." I gave my reason, that reason being that this is the only treatment which even has a chance to completely eradicate the cause of one's symptoms. Because I said to try it first, that necessarily implies that there are other treatments that one should try if this does not work, one of course being JOH. But even John will tell you that the regimen must be continued because the herpes virus is always present. And I do not look at this the same as going in for a quarterly chiropractic check-up. The need for chiropractic is brought about by injury to the body. If you repair the body, the cause of symptoms goes away. The need to treat a virus is brought about by a residual virus that cannot be eradicated. That is why I say try chiropractic "immediately." And if one does so, one is likely not to have a prolonged treatment course.

    There could be more; but I think I have pretty well spoken to your post.

    Well, I do need to speak to this one, Nwspin, when you write, "If I had listened to my doctor and had surgery 2 years before I had it, it would have cut down the damage dramatically but I wanted to try as many non-invasive treatments that were promoted on this forum as I could." Are you telling us that at the time the doctor was prescribing the low-salt diet and diuretics that he was also advocating surgery, right off the bat, even though, according to you, you had gone into "remission?" Let's see if I have this right. You are taking his prescribed course, you seem to be doing fine, yet your doctor is telling you that you should have surgery to repair a condition that is no longer exhibiting symptoms? And you are kicking yourself for not following his advice? I am really missing that one, Nwspin.
  6. Perses

    Perses Guest

    Henry, Hank, Dr. House, seems to me you have a serious internalized anger issue that manifests itself in the form of writing out long-winded replies that come across as being dictatorial. Why do the vast majority of your posts reak of, "I know I am right and nothing any of you say can prove otherwise....?"

    Lighten up dude.
  7. Cheryl

    Cheryl New Member

    Seriously, Henry, why don't you just meet up with nwspin someplace and give him a good spanking?
  8. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Because some people who read them project their own frailties and insecurities on me. As evidence of that, you have misused the term, "issue." An issue is a matter to be decided, not a problem to deal with. People who label other people's 'problems' as 'issues' have internalized anger that manifests in the form of vailed aggression.
  9. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Actually, I would like to meet Nwspin somewhere, but to buy him a beer.
  10. joy

    joy New Member

    We now return you to "Topic: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments for Chronic Idiopathic Symptoms" already in progress.
  11. MrMan

    MrMan New Member

    I"m in the same boat as nwspin and he made a excellent point. I'm now always deaf, always off balance, always have ear pressure and always have tinnitus. It looks like the only thing left for me is to wipe out my ear to stop the freaking vertigo and come to grips with the fact I going to have these problems the rest of my life.

    Now on the other hand I also took up valuable time going to Doctor Gasek and trying his treatment which was also a failure for me as well as JOH, accupuncture, NUCCA, lo-so and diuretics. So there's two sides to this coin which I bet nwspin would agree. However to nwspin's point Dr Gasek and other doctors are not on this site advertising for lack of a better term and other members who are not doctors are.
  12. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    MrMan, I don't know anything about your case. And regardless which advice, or no advice, people take, I expect that it would be instructive that they know what your timeline was, when you first experienced symptoms, what treatments you underwent and when.

    Advertising? I have only remodel jobs to sell these days. That is what I advertise. Here, we just talk and I try to help folks that I can. I deal with chronic illness everyday with my wife. Coming to grips with chronic illness is something I know very well. And that is why I do this. I have learned an awful lot, much the hard way. So to help folks not make the same mistakes I have, and to help point them in a direction that might help if taken expeditiously, that is why I keep talking. I have absolutely nothing to gain, nothing to advertise.

    I am sorry for the condition you find yourself in. At the same time, I hope you never give up trying to help alleviate your symptoms.
  13. nwspin

    nwspin New Member

    I don't drink beer but how about some humble pie... ;)
  14. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    I will share a piece with you.
  15. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    I posted by mistake into this thread. I apologize.
  16. Dr Burcon

    Dr Burcon New Member

    I have four hundred and fifty consecutive patients that have been diagnosed with Meniere's disease by Ear, Nose and Throat MD specialists. To be in my study they must provide a letter documenting how that diagnosis was derived and copies of those test results. I exam the patientsd and if they test positive for whiplash, I do a full set of cervical x-rays, which was all of them. Every set of films demonstrated an old whiplash injury, usually forgotten by the patient. Stating that all Meniere's patients have whiplash does NOT mean that all whiplash patients will develope Meniere's.
  17. studio_34

    studio_34 Guest

    Ah, the good old days. :)
  18. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    Wow, this could have been said by George Pell on qanda last week! :D
  19. abigail48

    abigail48 New Member

    who knows if I have meniers, I don't do doctors, but I don't drive & have never been in a car wreck. I did have a couple of bad head conks, one while swimming in a large swimming pool on my back fast, hit the end of the pool hard. 20 years + before the dizzies though
  20. hollymm

    hollymm Me, 'in' a tree.

    Another old post... What was your point Dr. Burcon?

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