Science Based v. Results Based Treatments for Chronic Idiopathic Symptoms

This is completely untrue and you know it. You have held forth many times on this board and on this thread that "certified" NUCCA practitioners shpuld be sought for treatment because of their specialized training. What I seized upon was when you were lumping Taximom in with your collection of anecdotal evidence as "proof" of the success of NUCCA, since by her won admission she did not see a NUCCA practitioner. Her initial recitation of events -- which was given to the board on an unsolicited basis -- seemed to be completely at odds with NUCCA therapy, and so I made the point that her anecdote was neither here nor there when it came to vouching for NUCCA. At that point 2 things occurred: 1) Taximom filled in additional details that she hadn't shared before; and 2) you retracted your prior stance that folks should see a certified NUCCA practitioner (a very, very specific specialty) and started claiming that anyone "familiar" with upper cervical therapy was good enough. So in order to dig deeper into whether her anecdtoe had any relevance to your point, i asked additional relevant questions. If this were a cross-examination to "impeach" a witness it would be a very poor effort, as any lawyer will tell you that if you are trying to "prove" your case you never ask a witness a question that you don't already know the answer to.

What you're doing with MrMan is the exact same thing. You're asking for details because you're trying to reconcile how his problems might be related to yours. Your problem is that you keep trying to paint this as a discussion where anyone who agrees with you necessarily wants to help others and anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't care about others. This is completely false. What you've done is no different than waht I have done.

 

No, IUCCA is not the same organization as NUCCA, and going to their website, I can't see what techniques they use. It appears to be a training and certification organization, but it is not NUCCA.

 

Yes, I know exactly what you were doing. You did not have to further make my point. All this , "seizing upon," and , "your collection of anecdotal evidence as "proof" of the success of NUCCA," and "by her won admission," and, "Her initial recitation of events," as if Taximom had rehearsed her testimony or something, and "you retracted your prior stance that folks should see a certified NUCCA practitioner (a very, very specific specialty) and started claiming that anyone "familiar" with upper cervical therapy was good enough," is just idiotic lawyer speak, Wino.

Here is right off of page one of my post in the database, which is also referenced in this thread as EVIDENCE:

1) Did they receive the proper treatment? Here I have always referred to treatment by a qualified upper cervical chiropractor, of whom NUCCA, AO and Blair methods have here been documented to have worked on selected individuals.

So here we go with the dictionary again. The term, "of whom" means that there are other qualified techniques than NUCCA, AO and Blair. At the time I began that thread, in January 2007, I had never even heard of NUCCA. So if you were trying to impeach my testimony, rather than Taximom's, please forgive me, my mistake, Clarence.

 

The reason that I asked whether you had an opinion regarding why the symptoms advanced as they did over these 8 years is that one very reasonable explanation would be organ tissue damage, which is one of the principles of the theory I propose for consideration. It is evident, to me at least, that prior to 2002, something occurred which began a degradation of certain tissues of your inner ear. And because that cause was not addressed, because only symptoms were addressed, those tissues have remained in a state of increasing degradation ever since. This may or may not be anything that anyone ever considers. I don't know. But organ tissue damage causes symptoms. A damaged heart valve causes heart symptoms, that kind of thing.

Now whether this damage occurred as a result of something upper cervical? I'd say its possible, but no way to know. Perhaps it was viral, or celiac. I mean, at this point that would be difficult to know. But what is not difficult to believe is that any recovery from these symptoms would only be as fast as the repair of the tissues in question. So how can that even be accomplished?

MrMan, I can't say how, with 100% accuracy, to accomplish repairing those tissues. But I can tell you some things that might help.

(1) Remove all reasonable causes for the tissue damage
(A) Stay in adjustment
(B) Shotgun approach on all non-invasive remedies you reasonably believe has helped someone else wh has similar symptoms;

(2) Research wound healing or tissue healing. What you will find is a plethora of information regarding vitamins and supplements that are designed to restore damaged tissues. Learn all that you can. Many times you can order these supplements online for less than you can buy in the store.

(3) Research oxygen therapy. Oxygen is needed to repair tissue damage. So if you can increase the amount of oxgen available to the tissues by hyperbaric measures, then it makes sense that healing might begin and even accelerate.

Presently, I see no other route available to repair the inner ear tissues. That does not mean that there are none. So do research in this regard. Beyond this approach, trying to repair the organ tissues, all I see is surgery to alter or remove something, which ought to be the very last resort.

In 2002, when these symptoms first began, of course you had no idea what it would turn into. But at that same time, if a concerted effort to identify the cause of the symptoms, which would likely be the cause of progressing tissue damage, were undertaken, trying everything we now know, surmise, or even guess, from reading the experiences of others on this site, which it was not, then perhaps these organ tissues could have been saved from all the progressing damage. Of course there is no way to tell. But one thing seems clear, and that is that the increase in symptoms over time occurred for a reason. Very few causes other than organ tissue degradation can account for that.

I feel for you, MrMan. Your case is a prime example of why I stay here and post. Because if there is someone out there who has a similar cause of organ tissue degradation that you do, and they read this, then that might make all the difference. It might not. Yet it might. And I believe that if one gets to the cause early, as in any progressive condition, then one has a better chance to treat the cause and remedy the symptoms.

But do not give up. Life is not over yet. Others have overcome as much or more. Who knows, if you take steps to eradicate all possible causes within your means, and bolster the tissues with every non-invasive tissue repairing agent or treatment you can find, maybe a year from now you will have noticed a distinct change in your symptoms, one for the better. That would be my fondest wish for you.

Hank

 

Thank you for the informative post, Henry.

This board has been a Godsend for many of us. We come here, learn of different approaches people have used to treat both symptoms and causes of dizziness, vertigo, hearing loss, tinnitus, headache, brain fog, and more--symptoms of Meniere's and/or migraine disorders.

There is nothing wrong and everything good about questioning and even challenging these approaches and the reasons behind them.

But somewhere on this thread, the focus shifted from questioning and challenging different approaches to trashing an entire approach and any poster who had good results from that approach.

But what it comes down to (again), some of us are currently symptom-free, and we posted what worked for us in an effort to help others. The people attacking those methods (and, in at least two cases, attacking the people whose symptoms are gone) still have symptoms.

John of Ohio recently posted a marvelous post in another thread on this board.

I would like to call everyone's attention to
http://www.menieres.org/forum/index.php/topic,26669.15/topicseen.html

 

Re: Science Based v. Results Based Treatments

Here's how it is possible:



The nervous system is more incredibly complex that any particular page of an anatomy book might be able to convey.

 

Thanks, Taximom, for pointing me to that link, a portion of which here is:

I expect that most people here who presently suffer these symptoms would agree whole-heartedly. And I do not disagree. At the same time, much of this discussion affects how to make the group with stopped symptoms larger. That can only come through understanding what caused the symptoms in the first place, and applying that knowledge to new cases. But in the end, after all is that accomplished, all that matters are the results. That is for sure.

 

If the nervous system is more incredibly complicated than a particular page of an anatomy book can convey, then what relevance does your medical illustration hold to "show" how impingement of the 8th cranial nerve can work?

That diagram, by the way, still misses the point. It's a nice illustration, but where does it show the 9 other cranial nerves that are rooted in the brain stem and where they are located in relation to the 8th cranial nerve? Which, once again, goes directly to the point that it makes NO sense -- scientific or otherwise -- that a nerve that is bundled with 9 other cranial nerves in the exact same location is the ONLY one that gets "impinged" by a 1mm subluxation of the atlas, yet you have absolutely no other problems with the other 9 cranial nerves. No visual disturbances, no spasms, no trigeminal neuralgia, no drooping eyelids, no facial paralysis, etc etc etc.

You can continue to get as pissy as you'd like and pretend to stand on some form of moral high ground when adderssing my points, but it's not going to change anything. I am 100% in favor of people doing whatever they may feel is in their best interests to heal themselves -- INCLUDING chiro therapy (which I have done, Hank), acupuncture (which I have also done, Hank), reflexology (not yet, but willing to give it a shot). However, I am also 100% in favor of people making informed decisions. And for a decision to be "informed" means that someone not just have "information," but rather information that is accurate.

I continue to be amused by you and Taximom essentially ignoring the content of every post and concluding that I am anti-chiro and that I am somehow suggesting that people stay away from NUCCA. Not once have I said or suggested either thing. And then you act like you get your feelings hurt when people challenge your assertions, all the while ignoring the incredible amounts of condescension that drip from your posts. Get over yourself, Hank.

 

Interesting you should mention that--I had visual disturbances. In fact, most people with migraines get visual disturbances (ever heard of "migraine aura?"). I also had an eye twitch. B12 deficiency can cause both, but you seem to be saying that nerve impingement can, as well?

I also never saw Henry write that problems with other nerves DON'T occur. Are you suggesting that we should expect to see equivalent symptoms with other nerves all the time, under every conceivable circumstance? If the other nerves aren't causing some kind of obvious symptom, then there must be no impingement of any nerve?

 

Actually, there are 11 other cranial nerves, not 9, and here they are depicted:



The rest of your post was no more accurate.

Regarding other symptoms from other cranial nerves, when did I say that they would not be affected? In fact they are. Look at all the symptoms from folks who post here who have diagnoses of Meniere's--IBS, TMJ, Fibromyaligia, trigger points, migraine (yes migraine), various pain groups, and more and more...Heck, look at all of Scott's symptoms. No, there is no end to the symptoms that might manifest.

 

It sounds like I'm splitting hairs here, but I really am not and it is very important to the discussion to understand the disticntion. There is a very big difference between a direct impingement on a nerve (the way that a herniated disc might impinge on a nerve root, or a tumor might impinge on a nerve) and the type of impingement that Henry is trying to equate with Meniere's. The first type of impingement is not the culprit here, as there is no disc at the C-1 level and the root of the 8th cranial nerve is above the first vertebra anyway.

Instead, Henry seems to be suggesting that there is an impingement at the nerve pathways and/or blood vessels through C-1 where the 8th cranial nerve -- and all 9 other cranial nerves that are sourced in the brain stem -- that "could" be the cause of disruption of the 8th cranial nerve,a nd the 8th cranial nerve only. Thus, causing "classic" Meniere's. What I am pointing out is that if the anatomy of the structures is understood it is pretty easy to see why that explanation makes precious little sense.

The best example I can think of is a brain stem tumor. When those occur, and there is mechanical impingement of the cranial nerve roots, one gets a multitude of symptoms including some of the items mentioned above. I cannot speak for your paerticular situation -- and I feel the need to stress once again that I do not pretend to "know" more about your own experiences than you do -- but what I can say is that having multiple cranial nerve problems would be far more indicative of a problem with the brain stem (be it impimgement, tumor, vitamin deficiency, etc) than a single nerve root would be.

 

Yes, there are 11 others. But only 9 of the others are rooted in the brain stem. Good try at trying to discredit the factual foundation of my post, though.

 

Never mind . I understand what you are saying.

 

Well, considering that what you quoted supports exactly what I said, it's just fine by me. (8th cranial nerve) + (9 others) = 10.

 

See correction. Looks like you got to Wikopedia before I did.

And so this time, Wino, other than just trying to disagree here, what is your point, that if the 8th nerve is effected, that all of the others would be affected, and to the same degree? And not that they are not, but you would know exactly what these complex nerve responses would be exactly how?

 

Where is our disagreement? Along with TN, my wife has every symptom in the book.

 

Wino, perhaps you have not noticed the overwhelming number of individuals on this site who suffer colateral symptoms, especially when the Meniere's symptoms are acute, many of which can be traced back to one of the cranial nerves that attach to the brain stem, of which there are 10 .

TMJ for example is a condition of the TM joint, which is innervated by the 5th cranial nerve. As you say, we should not be surprised to discover such a large number who suffer TMJ who also suffer Meniere's.

IBS is another. It relates to the vagus nerve. Trigger points relate to the accessory nerve. These are all examples of just what you predicted should occur. Dare we speak of migraine and brain fog? Charisse's experience indicate the distinct possibility that these common symptoms, in certain cases, can be related to similar effects to various other cranial nerves that attach to the brainstem.

So again, you and I agree.

Put 'er there, partner!

 

I did go by and get my x-rays from October 16, 2006. Here is:



This x-ray shows very much the same condition of misalignment as indicated by the May 2007 x-ray, using Autocad, 3.53 degrees off. This x-ray was taken within a few days of my last vertigo episode. As I have stated before, although the chiropractor who took this x-ray adjusted me, unfortunately as it would turn out, he adjusted both of us wrong side up. And his technique was anything but gentle. And although his adjustments did break the Meniere's cycle, which never came back after the first adjustment, obviously something was still very wrong. During this time, which would be between October 2006 and late February 2007 when I had my first NUCCA adjustment, I started doing traction on my neck. And each time I would, my tinnitus would lower noticeably by the next morning. But because I never really was adjusted correctly, I always felt at odds.

In late February 2007, Winde and I drove to Chicago to be examined and receive adjustments by Marshall Dickholtz, founding director of NUCCA, 85 years old at the time. Unfortunately, his adjustment held only so long, at which point we were back to square one. By late May 2007, when the x-ray I posted the other day was taken, virtually identical to this one, we had found the NUCCA office a few miles from us, where we have been going ever since. Over a month or so of intense reinforcing on the correction, the atlas stayed. Now I go about 4 times a year, normally when I feel a little off.

I post this to reinforce that the atlas can in fact be knocked out of proper position, as it was in my case by 3 1/2 degrees. And when it is, the result is a lessening in the available space that the brain stem can occupy. That can result in adverse pressure on the brain stem.

 

Holy Moley, Hank, next time put some clothes on. This is a public forum.

I see ... two nostrils & a frowny mouth (center of photo) or a big dang alien face wearing sunglasses & with his mouth open (very top of photo). Oops, forgot to take my drugs this morning. Sorry for intrusion.

We now return to our regularly scheduled program, already in progress.

 

You must have meant that post for Appleacheeuhville, down the page and take a HARD RIGHT.