Scalene muscles and Meniere's - part of my problem

Not biting, Scott. Neither you nor the lawyer have done any reading around here to try to locate the answers to your questions.

Both of you are doing your level best to hijack the thread I started about ME because you're arguing with Hank, not because you care two shakes of a lamb's tail about ME.

GET YOUR OWN THREAD. Leave me alone.

 

You frankly need to make up your mind here. You don't contend with "the likes" of me, and a sentence later concede you don't know the first thing about me. And if you're so grief-stricken that this thread isn't about me AND Hank, then where is your indignation towards Hank?

When have I NOT been "clear and up-front" about my credentials training and chiropractics? And, you do realize I hope that Hank isn't actually a chiropractor. Hank is a builder. I am a lawyer who respresents medical doctors, chiropractors and other healthcare providers. Been doing it 13 years and have literally invested tens of thousands of hours in my career studying, researching and debating all manner of medical issues. I practice on the state of Florida, where I was born and raised. I hardly see the necessity of giving my name and contact information to anyone on this board for any reason, nor what in the world that would have to do with whether or not medical facts are medical facts.

"Take a hike?" You're being ludicrous. I don't have "permission" to ask YOU a legitimate question because you are.....? Who? Are you presenting yourself as such a superior human being to a person you don't know that I am not "worthy" of asking you a legitmate question that is on point with the discussion?

I asked the question, MW, because I actually tried NUCCA (had an appointment yesterday, as a matter of fact) and it did nothing for my HEARING LOSS. I spent weeks posting real-time updates of my progress to help others on this board assess if NUCCA was a decent option for them. I concluded in that thread -- which, I'm sure you did your homework and read before throwing out accusations -- that while NUCCA had "some" value for folks, I didn't see it's value for HEARING LOSS. I ALSO pointed out in that thread that every NUCCA success story posted on this board seemed to have an important thing in common: SOME tangible relief of symptoms (even if temporary) within one or two visits. BECAUSE of that, my conclusion for those who are considering NUCCA is that if you try it and find no effect (even if it lasts only an hour or two) during your first couple of visits, it probably is not worth completing the entire 3-month course of therapy (something I have 2 weeks left of, at considerable loss of business time for me).

So when you posted that you felt it "hard" in your MM ear on the first visit, well, golly gee, forgive a person of my ilk for asking such an incredibly irrelevant and off-topic question like, "What does hard mean? And did it do anything for hearing loss?" You're totally right. That was such an off-the-wall cahacter attack on you and NUCCA that it derailed the entire conversation. Not Hank screaming like a 3 year old girl who had her toy taken away because someone told him he stated something as "fact" that wasn't a fact. Oh, no no no, it was totally me, and my irrelevant question makes me unfit to have an adult discussion. You and I have exchanged words how many times before this thread now? What's that? Was it zero times?

Or again....is what pissed you off that I disagreed with Hank, regardless of whether Hank was actually in the wrong on this thread?

 

Scott,

Let's be honest here. This is not a medical board for medical professionals looking for medical answers published in medical journals refereed by medical faculty. For all of that, you need to go to a doctor with lots of framed diplomas on the wall.

This, clearly, is an alternative Meniere's treatment website. Most of the people here are here because all of the medically-accepted treatments just haven't worked for them. First, they followed their physician's "Restrict your dietary salt to X-number of milligrams each day, and take this prescription diuretic. Then come back in six months to see how that works."

(The vast majority of readers here just read that quotation and said, “Yea, that’s just what Doctor X told me to do.”)

Then, six months later, back at Doctor X’s, the patient had to report that they still had Meniere’s symptoms.

What came next? It had to have been one of the very few things conventional medicine can offer. It could have been a course of prednisone, a gent injection, a dex injection, or even VNS surgery. For a while, sedation with Valium really worked, perhaps.

What else does published medicine have to offer?

And while you are legitimately interested in learning of published articles authenticating the safety and efficacy of the various alternative Meniere’s therapies posted so prominently (and successfully) on this board, do you happen to know of any published studies telling physicians (and the public) about the clinically-determined efficacies and safety of the procedures and treatments they offer? For example, what percent of those so universally put on low-salt/diuretic treatment get enduring relief? Is there any more published journal articles on conventional treatments than there are for alternative ones?

Or, is the only efficacy criterion that should be applied relates to who offers the treatment? If it’s some guy with a diploma framed on the wall wearing a white lab coat and a stethoscope slung over his shoulder, whatever he says to do for Meniere’s is Truth, regardless of the absence of published studies on what he’s prescribed or offered.

In summary, the truth is this. A large percentage of those being treated for Meniere’s by conventional medicine simply find no levels of enduring relief therefrom. In obvious and admitted desperation, they’ve come to this site, to see what alternatives they have, learning here from dozens of people who really have found the relief their doctors have not been able to provide.

Now of course, you will instantly, perhaps even arrogantly, attribute any reported alternative relief to either a placebo effect, or to plain misrepresentation.

That being the obvious case, why are you here? Haven’t you yet figured out that those who post and contribute here have no interest whatsoever in “proven, evidence-based therapies?” Most of us here have spent years and great expense trying to get relief from these, without success. We’ve all been to the doctor, and he has failed us. Here, we are looking for other answers, other solutions; ones that you cannot possibly believe or endorse.

You are the odd man out here. No one actively participating on this board is searching for journal articles to support either new or old Meniere’s treatments. Frankly, those don’t exist, either for conventional or alternative treatments.

To be blunt, we don’t care about “real studies” or “real physicians” or “real journal articles.” All we care about is “real results,” and a very large number have found that here, whether those results personally agree with you or not. We don't much care. Have you figured that out yet?

Please take none of this personally. But the truth remains, none of us are interested in published articles in juried journals. You are talking to yourself when you post those “concerns.”

You are talking to the wall here. Sorry. We are far more intelligent and discerning than you give us credit for. I’m sure you believe your essays will prevent all sorts of difficulties and problems we’d otherwise get ourselves into without such clear-headed advise to stay with conventional medicine.

So thanks for your concerns, but most of us will pay no attention and take Meniere’s matters personally into hand. We’ve all done the “real medicine” thing, and got no relief. Here, hundreds have gotten their lives back, even in the absence of published clinical studies, hard as that might be to believe.

My best. Don’t waste your time here. Sorry, we don’t subscribe to your criteria. This is not a medical board. Don't waste your so-obvious talents here. We are beyond your help.

–John of Ohio

 

Hector,

Please let this go.

Christian

 

John,

A few things I felt the need to comment on:

First, I don't think the first part is accurate at all. I think what brings "most" people to this board is the fact that very few of us have ever even heard the term "Meniere's syndrome" until we were diagnosed with it. When I first got diagnosed in the 90's, the internet wasn't what it is today and message boards weren't quite as prevalent. Google certainly didn't exist. So what happens is when "most" people want to figure out what the heck is wrong with them, they Google different resources and message boards and find their way here. Now, many of the long-time posters are folks who have not been helped by conventional medicine, and there is a certain level of frustration and bitterness with the medical community because of that. That is fact, and is easily scene in many of the anti-medicine postings on this site. Regardless, some folks have found alternatives to traditional medicine that worked for them, and are willing to share those ideas on this site. That, too, is a fact, and it is greatly helpful for folks who are running out of non-invasive options.

This is partly true. We don't know how many folks never even get to this site because they went into long-term remission with steroids, diuretics or other medical treatments. Some people show up, get better, and disappear. Others -- myself included -- seem to teeter back and forth. And so we look for alternatives to conventional medicine. I can only speak for myself, but I know that I have personally undergone acupuncture, NUCCA and am actively on JOH right now. Not to mention the fact that I am finding my own combination of JOH (plus quercetine and Co-Q 10) coupled with daily cardio exercise has brought my symptoms significantly under control. As has my abandonment of Diet Coke. I would not have tried some of these things if not for this site, and in that regard this site is very useful as a resource for alternative options. But that does not make this an alternative options site.

Well, perhaps YOU don't care. But it is plainly obvious that Hank, despite protestations to the contrary, DOES care. Because if he didn't, he would not incessantly engage in his "scientific" explanations of why NUCCA works. I've said it 1,000 times on this site before -- though the message seems to get lost repeatedly -- that if Hank would simply concede that he really doesn't know why it works and only acknowledges his results, he would get precious little grief from folks on this site. But when you have new folks showing up on a consistent basis on this site looking for information and answers, then we OWE those folks ACCURATE information and answers to the extent that we non-experts can give them. And when someone is giving out misinformation in a very authoritative manner, then I'm sorry but that needs to be addressed. People here are looking for "the" answers, not just "an" answer. And so what happens is Hank starts posting diagrams he poorly understands to support his points, cites to excerpts from articles that are out of context and goes off on wild explanations that make no scientific sense (i.e. that disc dessication causes brain stem compression). It may not sound like a big deal to you, but imagine the poor 20 year old scared kid who comes on this site for answers, and is scared out of his wits because someone is telling him his brain stem is being compressed and the doctors are hiding the truth from him.

Notice, I've never -- not once -- argued with you about the merits of your regimen. In fact, I've even pleasantly addressed questions with you via PM about it. To the extent that you and I have disagreed, it has been solely on the point that I think your views get a little too anti-medicine at times. And we've discussed that pleasantly, like adults. And it's because you're not posting things that are completely and outrageously flawed. So, certainly, while I agree that not every post or alternative treatment necessarily requires the posting of a peer-reviewed article, by the same token we owe it to others to point out when information being passed off as fact is simply untrue.

 

Christian,

Believe me, I plan to. I've said my piece now. But I will not be condescended to by MW or anyone else.

H

 

Hank has been supportive of me. You have not.

If you're going to claim that you know "a thing or two" about anything and if you're going to claim professional licensing to practice law, cough up the details or understand you'll be under suspicion of being insincere by me.

You bet I'm telling you to take a hike. If you want to argue with Hank, do it somewhere other than a thread I started by ME to get support for MYSELF.

I'm weary of you. Go help somebody else, little one.

 

8)

 

John,

This, clearly, is an alternative Meniere's treatment website.

Oh is that right? Now, I wonder how many on this forum would agree with that? I can tell you categorically that through PMs I receive that there are a lot here who quite frankly have had it up to their ears with some of the quackery that goes on and do appreciate some reason and rationality thrown into these conversations to bring them back to reality when they shoot off on a tangent which often happens. And does your definition of this site apply to newbies arriving who are trying to understand why they have vertigo in the first place, who may not even yet have a dx, may be misdiagnosed, or who may in fact have MAV which many most probably do given the statistics? Come on John, that's ludicrous.

How many do you think have come here, had support from others who used standard treatment (dex injections for example), and with that support came out the other side with excellent results? No doubt there are many cases. And there are likely many who gain good control and do not return either. I cannot believe you're saying that this is the place to come for non-medical treatment advice only - such as bottles of homeopathic water and certain chiropractic treatments with a premise that is anatomically and factually incorrect.

I have never once said that your regimen was not worth a try by the way. In fact, your use of L-lysine makes perfect sense given the large amount of evidence for herpes being a very possible cause or trigger of MM. If lysine works to inhibit viral replication than it is a treatment that works. It's not alternative. While I am skeptical of the other things you have put together such as bioflavonoids I see no problem with anyone giving it a shot including myself. The only thing that is a complete waste of time IMHO opinion is the homeopathy.

I'm frankly quite perplexed that you apparently have a science background but can come across as someone that has none at all in the way you tend to poo-poo medical science. I find it bizarre that you cannot get your head around the placebo effect. To suggest that a teatment is placebo seems to mean to you that 1) the person stating it is a placebo is possibly/ probably arrogant or 2) the person who experiences the placebo effect is perhaps stupid or weak because as you said in a previous thread, and I paraphrase, "there's no way my wife would succumb to that".

And then you write that no one here cares about "real studies". Love the quotes there John as though the research is somehow irrelevant, not worth taking on board, or is just the results of a flawed system. If you really mean that then you are a hypocrit and it is a worry. I know you've looked over many "real" studies yourself in coming up with some of your treatments, such as L-lysine for herpes and have made adjustments to the recommended dosing based on them.

Wino made a very good point in saying that "not every post or alternative treatment necessarily requires the posting of a peer-reviewed article; by the same token we owe it to others to point out when information being passed off as fact is simply untrue."

S

ps. You know John I had to add here that although your posts surprise me and I frankly don't really understand the way your brain works or your anti-medicine stance, I do respect what you do here, even if your thinking is misguided.

 

Very well said John!

By the way, Dr. Burcon is an upper cervical chiropractor who does the Blair method and not NUCCA.

 

You can't seem to get it through your skull that you should be pontificating ON YOUR OWN THREAD.

Go away! Scat! Scoot! Shoo! Or quit pontificating. Or be nice.

OH HEY I'VE GOT AN IDEA. If you or anybody wants to pontificate without being supportive or if you want to fight me or you want to argue with each other, post a comment on my blog. I have the "moderation" feature turned on to keep out spam but as long as you're on any topic in the column or even vaguely near it or any subject I blog about, I'll post it.

I want all the information to get out there. One reason I run the blog is just to put out information from studies, give my opinion on things, and I'll be glad to carry on there on the blog. We've had some important discussions on the blog about health topics. I do NOT run the blog for support. I get support from places like this and from social media.

Just leave me alone here to get support. Or be supportive. Start your own thread to argue with somebody other than me.

Oooo. Good times ahead.

 

Carnyard,

Thanks for these references, and I would like to draw attention to the URL I brought forward. Here is what it says:

Symptom relief after treatment of temporomandibular and cervical spine disorders in patients with Meniere's disease: a three-year follow-up.
Bjorne A, Agerberg G.

Vertigo Tinnitus, and Pain Unit, Ystad Hospital, Public Dental Service, County of Skåne, Sweden. [email protected]

Abstract

This study describes the coordinated treatment of temporomandibular disorders (TMD) and cervical spine disorders in patients diagnosed with Meniere's disease. The aim was to follow up treatment outcomes for three years with regular follow-up examinations every six months. Of the 31 patients with Meniere's disease who participated in a controlled comparative study on the signs and symptoms of TMD, 24 participated in a subsequent controlled comparative study on the signs and symptoms of cervical spine disorders (CSD). These 24 Meniere's disease patients (ten males and 14 females) agreed to participate in this longitudinal study. At each follow-up, their symptoms were evaluated using self-administered questionnaires and visual analog scales (VAS). The results of the coordinated treatment showed simultaneous decreases in the intensities of vertigo, nonwhirling dizziness, tinnitus, feeling of fullness in the ear, pain in the face and jaws, pain in the neck and shoulders, and headache that were both longitudinal and highly significant. Significant longitudinal reductions in the frequencies of vertigo, nonwhirling dizziness, and headache were also reported by the patients as well as a complete disappearance of pain located in the vertex area. A significant relief of TMD symptoms and a decrease in nervousness was also achieved. The results showed that a coordinated treatment of TMD and CSD in patients with Meniere's disease is an effective therapy for symptoms of this disease. The results also suggested that Meniere's disease has a clear association with TMD and CSD and that these three ailments appeared to be caused by the same stress, nervousness, and muscular tension.

I am presently working with someone who has dizziness, bursts of vertigo and pressure in the ear area. Whether this is aural fullness, as in the type commonly associated with Meniere's, I cannot say. But it is pressure in the ear area. This has been both sides. Yesterday, a TMJ release procedure on the left side relieved the pressure on that side. I expect next week that the same procedure will be used on the right. I believe this is significant because there is a large percentage of sufferers on this site who have TMJ, rather TMD, referring to an actual disorder of the TMJ. My expectation is that there is a correlation between many of these sufferer's symptoms and the condition of that joint. The more I understand of this, the more I am inclined to believe that TMJ is not just a nuisance condition. It is a bad actor and contributor to the symptoms folks complain of on this site. This person's oral surgeon's treatment for TMJ was to fit a mouthguard and say that the TMJ would eventually go away on its own. The treatment yesterday in the office of a chiropractor was to physically manipulate the joint back into position. As soon as the treatment was administered the pressure abated completly and is now only on the other side, where the TMD condition exists as well. Your posts prompts me to relay this information on this thread.

Hank

 

In my haste to respond yesterday, I forgot to point out an important point. In addition to what has been discussed, this site has introduced folks to other MEDICAL alternatives like:

1. acyclovir (prescription MEDICAL drug...thanks to Caribbean, June and others)
2. anti-fungal medications (by prescription....thanks to papajoe and his experiences)
3. allergy treatments (with a medical allergist....thanks to June and Taximom)
4. celiac disease (medical diagnosis....thanks to Taximom)

I think that John -- much like I did when I initially reponded -- spoke too quick and may not have expressed himself fully. I agree with John that one of the main reasons to come to this forum is when the "traditional" approach to MM (lo-sodium, diuretics, etc) don't work, to kick around ideas and look for alternatives. But I believe these alternatives are BOTH medical and non-medical. I don't understand the having to pick either/or approach, as I see these things to be quite complementary to each other. And, frankly, I would bash a medical recommendation that makes zero sense every bit as much as I would a non-medical recommendation that makes zero sense.

 

MW,

Your original post relates to the scalenes and how they affect your Meniere's symptoms. I would like to develop that answer given earlier. First, the the scalene muscles attach directly to the transverse process of the atlas bone itself. Misalign that bone, the scalenes will tighten, not only mecahanically, but neurologically. They tense up. Checking the scalene is a standard NUCCA test for atlas misalignment. Here is a picture of my chiropractor on a mission in Jamaica, performing this very check:



Every time I go in, he checks my scalenes first. When I am out of alignment, the scalene on my right is tight and tender. After he completes the adjustment, the tightness and tenderness is gone, I mean immediately gone. So the tightness of your scalenes may simply be an indication that you upper cervical is out of adjustment. Now, given that possibility, I'd like to go back to Caroline's question posed earlier in your thread regarding how an arthritic condition can cause dizziness or vertigo. First, the arthritic condition is very likely caused by long-standing misalignments in the upper cervical area like we are talking about. Misalignments result in point loads on the discs, which deteriorate the discs, which work on the point loadings applied by the vertebrae, which wear down the vertebrae, resulting in an arthritic condition. Secondly, once arthritis has taken hold in the neck, the neck becomes less stable, less able to hold an adjustment. So the alignment gets worse because it got worse, a snow-balling effect. So when that happens, the intervertebral nerves exiting between the vertebrae to innervate the tissues of the upper back become crimped, like so:



The muscles innervated by these impinged nerves tighten up, just like the scalenes, pulling the spine further out of adjustment, again, a snowballing effect. So now lets go back to the earlier shot, the one Caroline had a hard time focusing on:



Take a look at the nerve tract labeled, "Lateral Vestibulospinal tract." Dr. Rauch explains in his video the function of that tract. It connects with the 8th cranial nerve, the one responsible for hearing and balance, and the brain. Input from all areas of the body travels up the entire spinal cord giving the brain and understanding of the positioning of the body relative to gravity. Only by knowing this information can the brain work unconsciously to maintain balance. Here is a good discussion concerning the workings of the vestibulospinal tract:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibulospinal_tract

Now, look at this cross section of the brain stem and spinal cord (You may have to magnify, the tract in question is located at the lower left):



Notice the positioning of the vestibulospinal tract. It is at the exterior of the cord, right at the edge, easily impinged by actions such as depicted of the atlas here:



So what would happen if an arthritic spinal cord pressed on this tract? Obviously, it could impact its entire function, helping to maintain balance. The result would be a reduction in the sense of balance, the extrapolation of which would be either dizziness or even vertigo.

Now this is not just what Hank says. This is what Dr. Rauch says. In his video, he just leaves out the name of the nerve that carries the information from various parts of the body, up the spinal cord, to the brain. Once again, here is the link to his video:

http://www.masseyeandear.org/about-us/videos-and-podcasts/rauch/cervical-vertigo/

So I hope this helps to understand how these upper cervical considerations can and do affect the scalenes, and also the balance of the body.

 

I suggest you start another thread and abandon this one to the masterdebaters.

 

Ha! The PT said I had some trap issues on both sides too. The scalenes on my right side were more painful by far but both side had trap issues. The PT who helped me has a master's degree and something else but I can't remember what right off the bat. I'll find his card and edit. I feel good about this fellow working on my neck.

Hank, those animations are really interesting. It makes me sad that so few Western docs are interested in helping people with spine issues.

An update on how last TENSday's session has affected me: it has triggered every single head symptom I have, every single one. I'm going to ask Elder Assistant Offspring's bf to draw up a human outline and gank a posterior spine pic from somewhere and put them together. If he'll put the page on landscape and then put a form on each side with lines for notes, I'll be able to notate each session how I do. The PT told me (as all the PTs I've seen have said) that he wants to know each time what happens. I'll never be able to remember but having a good way to record them will be a huge help.

I burned myself underneath one of the electrode pads overusing the TENS unit. I've got a very good aloe vera gel that cooled it off and stopped it pain right away. I will absolutely pay much closer attention to how long I leave the electrodes in one place.

I've battled a migraine since yesterday morning and it's still going strong. Meds are helping but I'm going to hook up Scalene in different spots and see if that'll help.

Thornapple River, what a stunningly unhelpful remark. Is there no one else you can find to pick on either other than me?

 

I wasn't picking on you; It is a suggestion. Although I am sure the pests will participate in any thread anyone starts. I am just sick of nassman, wino, hank and scott and their ilk having these debates where they are all prancing around saying they won't be condescended to and how incredibly intelligent they are. the incivility is making me sick. no sense even being on this forum any more. So I'm off.

 

MW, thanks for sharing your PT experience.

I see my company doctor (the only one so far who offers me tangible advice and help) next week and I will ask him about sending me to physiotherapy to see if I have any improvement in my symptoms. We are lucky to have physio right at my workplace so it will not cost me anything.

If it helps that will be great, if it doesn't it will give me more info to give to the Neurotologist when I see him. Since I have neck pain, whether from MAV or something else it certainly can't hurt having a qualified PT look at it.

 

One of my pet peeves is when a good thread get hijacked and I would normally keep out of this but I have to butt in because the above really bothered me.

I was not aware this was clearly a website for alternative MM treatment. To me it is the largest website on MM with a great discussion board for vertigo disorders of all kind. I haven't been able to find any other board like this. Yes, alternative treatments are discussed and for the most part I pass over those posts because I, personally, am not interested in alternative treatments. It's fine if they are here but it's not where my interests lean.

I am interested in finding out what the cause of my vertigo is and treating that. I do not want to go to a doctor who thinks 99% of MM is caused by a virus and then sends me home with a prescription for some medication. And when that doesn't work, then what? Go to another doctor who thinks 99% off MM is because my brain stem is upside down so let him do NUCCA on me and what happens when that doesn't work? Find another doctor who thinks 99% of MM is caused by a food intolerance, so I cut out almost everything and still don't feel well. Then what? find another doctor who thinks 99% of MM is because of something else and try his treatment. I want to find a doctor who is open enough to know there is more than one cause of vertigo as well as know that Meniere's in itself is not a disease but is a group of symptoms and in order to treat the symptoms you must first find out the cause.

I am VERY interested in "real studies" that are backed up by "real doctors." I am not interested in a study by a lone doctor who can skew results to show what he wants. I do care about real studies and real physicians and real articles. I am interested in learning all I can about the various causes of vertigo. I do not care about are alternative treatments.

Please don't speak for me when you don't know what is going on in my mind.

Thank you, Jane

 

When I go to my AO Chiro for treatments on my back & hips, sometimes my neck feels off, I can't turn my head as far as the other side. I always think my C1 maybe out but when he checks me he says it isn't out, he just pinches the muscle on the side of my neck that is affected and the muscle immediately relaxes and I have full mobility in my neck. I have tried to do this myself but I am never successful.

I will ask him next time I see him if this is the Scalene muscles or not. I must add this has never affected my Meniere's one way or another, neither has the C1 adjustments, does wonders for my back and hips though.