Scalene muscles and Meniere's - part of my problem

Discussion in 'Your Living Room' started by MedievalWriter, Aug 26, 2010.

ATTN: Our forums have moved here! You can still read these forums but if you'd like to participate, mosey on over to the new location.

  1. MedievalWriter

    MedievalWriter Ryan's Rose Pvt Ryan Winslow KIA Iraq 4-2006

    Well!!

    Finally, I'm in physical therapy that I believe will help long-term. I've got spine problems Atlas bone to tail bone but my cervical spine is the worst-off. I've had vestibular rehab twice and Epley three times but it only helped the BPPV.

    Now I'm seeing a neck expert. The owner of the clinic is a vestibular expert. I now have a TENS unit too.

    PT Chris performed manual traction on my neck and I believe I'm an inch taller. He worked my neck over and it feels like tenderized steak! He hit spots on both sides of my neck and I like to come up off the table from the pain. He said they were "scalene muscles". They connect to the collar bone and are innervated by the C-2 through C-7 nerves, the associated vertebrae of which are my worst neck problems. Every time he hit my right scalene muscles, I felt it HARD in my right Meniere's ear.

    They're going to go at my spine one end to the other. I got to play WII Fit working on my lower spine issues. Might look into one of those for myself. 8)

    Aching and headache-y so right this minute I don't feel physically better but I certainly feel more encouraged. Something they did triggered left-to-right vertigo. I had just one second of faintness walking out to the car afterwards but I was ok.

    Working up a blog article about all this. I know that so much information is present here on menieres.org about neck issues and Meniere's. There is absolutely a connection, at least for me. If the doc is sure your issue isn't viral, maybe it's a neck thing?
     
  2. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    MW,

    Your on a good track here. Here is something else to ask about, Dysport injections in that muscle and in any trigger point knots in the upper back. You are right. The nerves innervating those muscles get crimped by the cervical vertebrae. That causes them to contract, knot up and harden. Those are trigger points. Your scaline is just a large trigger point. And these trigger points, as some much as folks may disagree, excite symptoms related to various cranial nerves. That isd what you are discovering.

    Dysport is a relatively fast-acting and long lasting form of botox. They use is cosmetically. But when you inject it into these hard muscle fibers, they lay down. And when the trigger points relax they stop feeding adverse nerve signals up and down the cervical spine. You said it, "Every time he hit my right scalene muscles, I felt it HARD in my right Meniere's ear." That is exactly right. So unless there is a channel, a nerve track or intersection between the nerve innervating your scaline and your Meniere's ear, that could not happen.

    You might recall, my wife Winde has a form of trigeminal neuralgia. There are times that I can press on one of these trigger points on her back, one in particular, and pain will manifest in her lower teeth. So there is just no question that what you have observed is entirely correct. Now having noticed this, you have a whole array of treatments before you to try. Winde has Dysport injections every 5-6 months. It really works to keep these muscles from knotting up and causing symptoms elsewhere. The only difference between you and Winde, I expect, is which nerves are affected by the knots. Hers is the 5th cranial nerve. Yours is the 8th. Both report to the brain stem.

    I believe you are onto something. I hope you will exploit this new found knowledge for all it is worth.

    Good luck.

    Hank
     
  3. pardonme

    pardonme Guest

  4. njspingirl

    njspingirl unilateral menieres..had vns and gent injections

    Nucca..going on 5 months. Its the best that could have happend to me. I have the same problem as you with the C's. I do have a tender spot that is very painful. I have been applying heat for the past few days. I bought the "Bodiheat" pads. I put one on at night and sleep with it. The past few nights have been the best sleep ive had in MONTHS. Pain free allows you to hold your head up "straight" and walk tall. I am still trying to go med free for the pain..or injection free..See how much more I can put up with.
     
  5. MedievalWriter

    MedievalWriter Ryan's Rose Pvt Ryan Winslow KIA Iraq 4-2006

    Thanks, everybody. (((meniere's.org)))

    Yep, Hank, everything you said is exactly the same as things I've been reading about on various websites while I've had ice on my neck. One article mentioned injections but didn't go into detail as well as you did.

    I'm not thrilled about the thought of injecting botulism into my body but I'll discuss it with the doc next time I see him. I sincerely hope that PT and this TENS unit will help keep the trigger points under control but it'll be a while before we know if they will.

    pardonme, I definitely will pay closer attention to what sets off the vertigo. It was left-to-right, saying to me that it was not in my currently-diagnosed right Meniere's ear. It hit when I stood up after the neck work. I had been sitting on the edge of the table for a couple of minutes before I got up. The PT had gone off to his next patient but my daughter was standing there and lent me her shoulder. GO ASSISTANT OFFSPRING!! XD

    Everybody, if you (and/or your doc) have even the most faint belief that your neck might have anything to do with your Meniere's symptoms, it is ABSOLUTELY WORTH IT to persevere and find experts in neck issues.

    It is so discouraging. It is beyond discouraging. Few people even in the fields have any understanding of how to get up and underneath an Atlas bone for example (which the PT did for me bwt) much less how to do a therapeutic massage on scalene muscles! But hang in there. You WILL be able to get relief. The tech did e-stim and ice on my spine down through the middle of my back at the end and I walked out feeling better than when I walked in. IT WORE OFF lol but I'm keeping good notes. The PT asked me if I would so he'd know how I reacted to the things he did.

    I've decided to name my TENS unit Scalene. She and I are gonna hook up after while and go cruisin'. LOLOL ;D ;) :D
     
  6. njspingirl

    njspingirl unilateral menieres..had vns and gent injections

    Med..did you need an RX for the tens unit?
     
  7. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    If it is an arthritic condition causing the nerve impingements, and therefore the trigger points, that can be a boogerbear. That is what Winde has and Dysport has erased the need for much heavy TP work, and frankly works better and much lonfer, about six months. And the traction, I am pleased to read that has given relief. If folks will read back, I have written a good deal in the past about disc decompression. It is a growing industry with several leading manufacturers of high tech equipment, the goal of which is to succesfully rehydrate the discs. Discs compress in the aging process, so a well-conceived disc decompression therapy, for reasons listed here, may help to alleviate symptoms associated with hearing and balance.
     
  8. CarolineJ.

    CarolineJ. New Member

    I would be interested in hearing more about how an arthritic condition can cause dizziness/vertigo?

    I was looking it up a bit online but there was not a lot specifically about vertigo/dizziness and arthritis.

    If any of you have info on this can you start a new topic about it so we can learn.

    Thanks.
     
  9. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Caroline, this has been an oft discussed and debated subject, how something happening in your neck can cause hearing and balance symptoms. Watch Dr. Rauch's video on cervical vertigo. He tries to explain the phenomenon in general terms. Here on this website, I have tried to explain it in my own terms.

    One way to simply know that it is possible is to realize that there is a portion of the hearing and balance nerve that extends down through the cervical spine. Where it goes, I sure don't know. But it is there. So if the upper cervical region deteriorates by arthritic action, that would have an effect on the nerves and nerve tracks that pass through it. And just trying to explain the answer to your question, many times sparks more debate than in the House of Commons.

    But the important aspect of this is that, regardless of why, the effects of these upper cervical abnormalities and deteriorations is real. The OP is another person in a long line of folks who is understanding that.
     
  10. CarolineJ.

    CarolineJ. New Member

    Thanks Henry, I am familiar with the debates that you mention.

    I was just wondering if anyone has a specific answer as to what damage arthritis would do to cause the dizziness/vertigo. Would it just be arthritis in the neck or in other areas too?

    I recently found out that my Neurologist asked my GP to run some connective tissue disease tests and they weren't done and at the same time I found out that my hs-CRP test was really high showing inflammation in my body. I am just wondering what the connection could be between a possible arthritic condition and MAV.
     
  11. carnyard

    carnyard New Member

    Medieval Writer,

    Your experience is almost word-for-word the same as my own. I have been in traction 3x's per week for 5 months. Every time my chiropractor increases the intensity or changes the angle, my symptoms flare up. But I push through and usually after the next traction/adjustment session, I'm better than I was before. Keep pushing. If your neck is as bad as mine, it takes time but it is worth it. I am symptom-free today and have approx. 3 more weeks of traction to go to get my neck practically normal. The only difference is my chiro uses acupuncture instead of injections to loosen those muscles. Also remember that deep tissue massage does release some toxins as well so it is normal to feel a little sick the first couple of times. For me, it felt like a terrible case of the flu, but it goes away.

    And you can trust anything that henrysullivan tells you ;) He's made a world of difference for me and I am eternally grateful.

    Carnyard
     
  12. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    If it is arthritis of the cervical discs, then that places pressure on the brain stem, not only laterally,but also compresses its length. The results are unpredictable in specific, but certain to occur. Who knows, because it is all neurological, the condition we are talking about might result in various inflammations throughout the body. I just don't know. But there is one way to find out, and that is to receive treatment for this condition and see if the symptoms improve.
     
  13. CarolineJ.

    CarolineJ. New Member

    Thanks Henry. That helps me understand a little more and makes sense.

    I am going to talk to the Neurotologist about all this stuff and I want to have my facts straight when I do.

    What is the specialty of the doctor that would treat arthritic conditions??
     
  14. Wino

    Wino Resident Honey Badger

    It actually makes very little sense, and is not an anatomically accurate description at all.
     
  15. Wino

    Wino Resident Honey Badger

    I'm curious as to what you mean by having felt it "hard" in your MM ear. What is it that you felt? Also curious as to whether you suffer hearing loss, and whether the treatment did anything for that.
     
  16. njspingirl

    njspingirl unilateral menieres..had vns and gent injections

    I believe it does make sense. If your posture is bad, it will affect the body. The neck area is full of nerves and if it is out of position, it can cause dizziness. What if the cervical bones are twisted..Wouldnt you think this cause circulation problems to the brain? The cervical bones will affect the nerve signals and cut off circulation. Dizziness occurs.
    Look, it you are experiencing dizziness and your head is "on straight" meaning your neck is in the "right" position, then Id say it is ALL menieres. If your head is tilted for a long period of time to the point where you are veering off to the left or right.. You better think twice about getting it back in position.
    3 LONG YEARS, I have been TILTED..xrays showed arthritis in the neck with a disc degeneration. I couldnt do physical therapy.. I couldnt hold my head up straight long enough to do the exercises!
    5 months into Nucca and I can finally walk straight. and NOT have someone beside me..pushing me upright. The dizziness has subsided a great deal. So, believe what you want to believe.
    It seems to me that there are alot of folks in here who could be helped..but chose to deal with it in different ways. For me,,If there is a surgical procedure to help the menieres.. IM GOING TO DO IT.. I dont understand the suffering that some of you put up with in here. I see post saying it has been YEARS AND YEARS of suffering.. whats up with that?? I am sure that alot of people cannot afford some treatments..but there are some that can..so I just dont get it anymore.
    I dont post much in here anymore..mostly because the more I read the more depressed I get. I think the more we dwell on the conditon..the longer it takes to heal..trying to find the answers. DO WHAT YOU THINK IS RIGHT for yourself.
     
  17. Wino

    Wino Resident Honey Badger

    I was referring to Hank's description of how arthritis could cause vestibular problems. His explanation about "compression" on the brain stem due to compressed discs makes ZERO sense. Likewise, the 8th cranial nerve doesn't pass through the atlas at all. The brain stem is above the atlas and the 8th cranial nerve doesn't go down through it.
     
  18. njspingirl

    njspingirl unilateral menieres..had vns and gent injections

    arthritis..bad bones in the neck..band NERVES..it all works together.
     
  19. Wino

    Wino Resident Honey Badger

    It's really not quite that simple.
     
  20. carnyard

    carnyard New Member

    Bravo njspingirl, Bravo. I guess we New Jerseyans see things a little more black and white.
     

Share This Page