Quorum request

That's very common. Technically, in a hospital or outpatient imaging center setting, only the radiologist can render the formal interpretation of a film. But other specialists like to look at their own films themselves for reasons like what you described. Surgeons, for example, like to look at pre-op films to plan their surgery, and post-op films to evaluate the job they did. It never hurts to have a second set of eyes look at something.

 

Well, it's not just radiologists. They only look at films in hospitals and outpatient centers. Or sometimes they're asked to give second opinions. But, for example, if you go to an office visit with an ortho or a chiro, they will generally take a film in the office and interpret it themselves. On occasion they might farm it out for a second opinion, but that's far less common. So those specialties also "interpret" films.

But the only thing scarier than a false positive mammogram is a false negative one. I've had my share of those cases in the past and they're a pain to defend. It's remarkably easy to miss a cancerous lesion on a mammogram when it is being looked at prospectively.

 

Thank you, again, Chris, for doing the diligence to find that article concerning the effects on tinnitus of mechanical actions, either pressing down on the head, or manipulating the jaw. That article is ripe with insight, not only with its main concern, that being the origin of tinnitus, but also several ancillary or parallel contributing factors which also affect those who suffer Meniere's and related symptoms. Great find, Chris.

First, I direct the reader's attention to the following paragraph from the article:

"Conclusions: The ability to modulate tinnitus by performing voluntary somatosensory or motor acts is likely the result of plastic changes in the brains of these patients with the development of aberrant connections between the auditory and sensory- motor systems."

Whoa! That is a mouthful! First let's talk about plastic changes in the brains of these patients. Inside the skull reside two areas of the brain, the cerebrum and cerebellum. They are entirely encased inside the skull's plates, which do move, but only practically microscopically, with respect to one another. So pressing on the top of the skull will hardly produce a plastic change in either of these two areas of the brain. That leaves the one area which is subject to plastic displacement, the brain stem. The lower portion of that area commonly referred as the "brain stem" is the medulla. Please read about the medulla here:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/372788/medulla-oblongata

According to Britannica:

"A complex network of medullary nerve cells and processes from elsewhere in the central nervous system enables the medulla to carry on complex integrative functions. The medulla also contains several functional centres that control autonomic nervous activity, regulating respiration, heart rate, (Notice this, Van, regarding your onset of high blood pressure) and digestive processes. Other activities of the medulla include control of movement, relaying of somatic sensory information from internal organs, and control of arousal and sleep."

So the medulla is a place in the brain stem where "complex integrative functions" occur. This area of the brain is the main 'switch board' of the central nervous system. Note again, Van, that heart beat, and therefore blood pressure, is regulated via this vital area of the brain. That should be a big hint to you concerning why it was that your onset of high blood pressure occurred at the same time that you developed the neck pain to which you referred.

Now Britannica goes on:

"Injuries or disease of the lateral medulla may cause loss of pain and temperature sensations, loss of the gag reflex, difficulty in swallowing, vertigo, vomiting, or loss of coordination."

I know from the experience of Winde's (my wife's) surgery to microdecompress the 5th and 9th cranial nerves, where they attach to the brain stem, that it is the 9th cranial nerve, the glossopharyngeal, that controls the ability to swallow. Her surgeon told her that before the surgery, and sure enough, ever since, she has had a difficulty swallowing and finds herself coughing several times a day from things going down the wrong way.

But notice the reference to vertigo. Vertigo is a sensation related to the 9th cranial nerve's neighbor, the eight, both of which attach to the medulla, which portion of the brain, if injured, according to this credible source, can cause vertigo. (I hope you are reading, Van)

So according to the scientific study Chris brings to this discussion, "plastic changes in the brain," that is, differential tissue movement brought on by forces exerted on the brain, most reasonably meaning the lower portion of the brain stem, AKA the medulla, in other words, 'compression' of the lower brain stem, just above the first vertebra, causes this phenomenon we are conversing about here, increases in tinnitus, and according to Britannica, even vertigo. And that is what Van experiences, and I have experienced, and all of the people in this study who registered positive responses, at least, experience the elevated tinnitus symptom.

If compressing these brain stem fibers causes increases in tinnitus, then it is reasonable to consider that brain stem compression is likely the the pathenogenesis of at least a certain variety of tinnitus than we experience when we press down on our heads or move our jaws. Therefore, I expect that considering that possibility would likely be a good first step to remedying, or at least lessening, this variety of tinnitus. THat is exactly what Taximom did and it remedied her tinnitus. That is really all I need to say about that right now.

Next, consider this study's other major revelation:

"The embryology of the jaw and ear may provide some additional insight into the development of the phenomenon we report (19). The trigeminal, or fifth cranial nerve, supplies motor branches to the muscles of mastication and three sensory branches to the skin of the face. The trigeminal ganglion, the site of the nerve cell bodies that mediate facial sensation, is derived from the second neuromere. The ganglion of the vestibulocochlear nerve is formed from the nearby fourth neuromere. The mandible arises from the first pharyngeal arch and the auditory ossicles from the first and second arches. These arches are just ventral to the second and fourth neuromeres. The cochlea is derived from the otic vesicle, a structure formed after an invagination of the epithelium adjacent to and dorsal to the fourth neuromere. A recent anatomic study has shown that the cochlea is innervated by the trigeminal nerve . These close anatomic and embryologic relationships between the trigeminal and vestibulocochlear nerves, the mandible, and the cochlea, may provide a partial basis for a predisposition to form the aberrant connections that give rise to the loudness regulation phenomenon we describe."


Whoa! This is almost too good to be found in a scientific study! I may run out of space on this one! Chris, you found a gem here.

OK, according to this scientific study, in an effort to explain how it is that compressing these nerve fibers together might bring about increases in the perception of tinnitus, the offered reason is that the 'closeness' of these nerve tracts of the trigeminal (5th) and vestibulocochlear (8th) nerves, which attach to the brain stem in close proximity, form 'aberrant connections' due to that closeness and being subject to plastic compression. In other words, the author is speculating that these nerves 'cross talk.'

Over two years ago, I wrote of this phenomenon on this forum. You may read my comments here:

http://www.menieres.org/forum/index.php/topic,18860.msg335170.html#msg335170

In that post, I wrote,

"I believe that tinnitus can arise from several major originators, two if which being a damaged or impinged 8th cranial nerve, the other being a compressed brain stem. I say the brain stem because the brain stem is the area that receives all nerve impulses and connects those signals to the 'right' area of the brain. Tinnitus is sort of like background radiation in space. I believe that when the brain [stem] is compressed to any significant degree, which happens commonly as we get older, abnormal pressure is exuded on that very vital element of the nervous system. With pressure comes nerve 'crosstalk,' allowing nerve impulses to 'jump the track' so to speak. So impulses that arrive on the way to a certain portion of the brain, from many conceivable areas of the body, jump the track and end up in an area of the brain for which they are not intended. MS Society research teams verify what I say here regarding crosstalk. So if this is what is happening, then it allows for multipicitous nerve signals to find there way to the specific area of the brain that interprets sound. To the brain, these signals seem like static on an AM radio, like background radiation in space. This explains why cutting the 8th cranial nerve would not alleviate certain brands of tinnitus. The nerve impulses in question do not arrive via the 8th cranial nerve; they go around it but find their way to the area of the brain the 8th reports to, coming together and causing perceived constant background noise, tinnitus.

"This is not the only source of tinnitus, but it is a significant source, I believe."

According to this scientific study that Chris offers us, what I wrote two years ago is likely the case, that this certain variety of tinnitus we are speaking about, is the result of brain stem compression and resulting 'cross talk' between nerve tracts, registering to the brain as static does an AM radio.

Oh but there is more! In January of 2008, I posted the following discussion of the possible ways that a compressed brain stem can cause certain of the symptoms this site is dedicated to discuss and one manner that is available to help remedy that condition:

http://www.menieres.org/forum/index.php/topic,3080.msg200600.html#msg200600

Speaking to the experience of many who suffer these symptoms, that certain seemingly unrelated symptoms seem to occur simultaneously, I wrote:

"My experience with all this tells me that because the nerves convey electrical current as a way of communication with the brain, if you compress various nerves together, that extreme close proximity [which is what the author of Chris's study suggests as well] would allow nerve voltage to crosstalk from one set of nerve fibers to another [which is the major conclusion by the author of Chris's study]. If voltage could conduct across nerves, as I theorize it can, then an ailment in one part of the body could exhibit seemingly unrelated symptoms in another part of the body. Those symptoms would be what we call, “referred.” Whether you agree with me, you should accept that what I say here is plausible."

This explains the common experience of many who suffer from trigger points on their backs and shoulders and why these trigger points seem to rise up at the same time that hearing and equilibrium symptoms come about. The nerves innervating the back and shoulders become excited and 'cross talk' over to the hearing an balance nerve, causing static and distortion of sounds, and equilibrium problems.

Here is another post of mine, from September, 2009, speaking to the notion of nerves cross-talking with one another:

http://www.menieres.org/forum/index.php/topic,21624.msg380687.html#msg380687

There is even more! But I will compose and post that later. But it has to do with the relationship cited by the author of Chris' study between the inner ear, the trigeminal nerve, the hearing and balance nerve, and hearing and balance symptoms that arise potentially from the interplay between the three. This discussion goes back to my very first post on the forum, which post can be found here:

http://www.menieres.org/forum/index.php/topic,3080.msg67329.html#msg67329

And my somewhat complete story, at least up until January, 2007, which includes more information on the relationship between the trigeminal and hearing and balance nerves, and the disorders we speak of, and indeed how I even came to begin to understand these connection, I later offered here:

http://www.menieres.org/forum/index.php/topic,3080.msg69653.html#msg69653

That is a lot to digest, I know. I'll be back with more.

 

Wow. The gears are rotating at a high speed. There's no shortage of meat to sink teeth into around here. I must admit that im overwelmed with all of this information I also have a better understanding of just how much I don't know.

I understand that there are many possibilties however there are two that appear from the fog to me. 1) Abnormal pressure on the brain stem 2) MAV.

The possible cause of #1 could be a bad neck or misaligned? The cause of #2 is poor circulation to certain areas of the brain?

Along with an Upper Cervical Chiropractor is there another specialist needed?

What type of Dr or specialist could prove one way or the other for MOV?

Is there more than one type of cat scan?(the type that looks like they sliced your brain in pieces) I had one at the onset but had know idea what they were looking for.

 

Hank,

You have missed the point. You open your argument with the assumption that the authors 'meant to say' medulla, or brain stem. If you read (and assimilate) the report in it's entirety, you will see that they are talking about the brain in general, the auditory, sensory-motor and limbic systems, and cross talk between the systems, in the context of the volume regulation phenomenon. At no stage does the medulla rate a mention. Maybe they just forgot.

The rest of your argument is therefore rendered invalid by your initial false assumption. I did, however, find the Brittanica quotes of interest.

Of interest also in this report:

1. It's from 1998, so not too recent,
2. It is largely sponsored by a tinnitus interest lobby,
3. It poses some interesting comparisons between the initial clinical study and the later, questionairre based research.

Henry, I believe you could drop Dr Lockwood a line (his details are on the report), and discuss the medulla issue with him. That would constitute sound, academic courtesy.

Cheers,

Chris

 

I missed no point, Chris. I can read very well what the authors stated. And I make my case regarding why this can only mean elements of the brain stem. How is the cerebrum going to compress if you push on the top of your head unless your skull is made of jello? Yes I make my case and I believe I stated it very well. You are free to attach credence to what I write or not. Either way, it was an excellent find and I do thank you for calling it to our attention.

 

Hello Hank,

As I said, a pleasure..

Cheers,

Chris

 

The movie was Steel Magnolias, the scene was the hair salon. Julia Roberts had just had an attack and her mother (Sally Fields) was talking to the hair dresser ( Dolly Parton). They are talking about her (Julia) while she recovers from her attack and she says (Julia) "dont talk about me like im not here".

Whats happening guys? Is there a chance you can put this in layman terms?

 

I agree,

The last time I went to a chiropractor I left a duck (quack) on his receptionist desk when I left. He wanted me to sign a 1600.00 maintence contract for the year.

Desparate peole do desparate things and these people prey on those type of people.

Go a few Times and if you get no relief, politely tell him no more.

 

Cheers Chris!

 

Ladies and Gents thanks for the reply.

 

What a chick flick that was.

In layman terms, there are a certain set of folks who subscribe to the notion that only scientists have the tools they need to solve the sort of symptoms we discuss on this site, this even though science has offered nothing of substantial worth toward understanding the cause of these symptoms, and successfully treating them, having been working at that for over 100 years.

OTOH, there are others of us who understand that if we have a chance of understanding the cause of these symptoms, and successfully treating them, knowing that we are pretty much left to our own devices anyway, we have nothing to lose to try to understand and treat our own symptoms. And for some reason that I have never understood, especially when you speak about upper cervical abnormalities and chiropractic solutions, the science promoters want to argue about anyting those who try alternative treatments discover or surmise. They all want proof of anything you write. Well, all the proof I need is that I discovered the cause of my symptoms and successfully treated them, and others have come along behind me, tried what worked for me and they are well for having done so.

And because I have a tremendous interest in this subject, and am the kind of person who likes to know why, and because I know that anything I discover along these lines could conceivably help many people, I write down what I discover for people to consider. You can judge whether what I write makes any sense to you. But the science folks just get upset by all this. So Chris has placed himself into the position of judging whether I have understood the point of the article he brought us yesterday. But he defeats his own position on this because according to his entire philosophy toward health, we are all incapable of understanding any of this anyway, and that includes him. So if he can't understand these things for the lack of formal scientific training in the field about which we speak, then he also has no standing to judge whether anyone else understands. Understand?

 

I here you, loud and clear.

 

Hello Funshine!

Vanisdizzy,

That did go off on a bit of a tangent, didn't it? Not what you wanted at all. I'd always wondered about the way you can change the tinnitus pitch and volume by pressing your head, or moving your jaw, and I dug up that paper, which offers a digestible sort of explanation as to why. But I think you got an answer to your original question earlier on.

Stay well,

Cheers,

Chris

 

And the straw man makes yet another appearance.

You know, Harold Camping is a civil engineer who trained at Cal-Berkley. Cal is an extremely prestigious academic institution, so it's not like any dummy can just show up and get a degree. Especially not in civil engineering, which is heavily math-centered. He probably knows more about math than just about anyone who posts on this board. And he was able to couple his math knowledge with his study of the Bible for over 50 years. Think about that, FIFTY years!!!! All dedicated to solving the "math" problem of identifying the precise date for the end of times. And yet, despite all of his meticulous calculations, prolific study and all-consuming research, he has been wrong twice now.

What does that have to do with anything on this thread? I don't know. Just thinking out loud I guess.

 

;D [chokes on coffee]

Henry, you are truly the Paganini of flawed logic!

Bravo!

 

And Harry has made some serious cash along the way...122 million or thereabouts?

 

Well Wino, this second time Harold isn't wrong yet, he just postponed it until October..... or November..... you know, sometime later.

 

Honey Badger don't give a shit.