Pubmed - Vasopressin exposure in rats - Kidney/Ear relationship

Just thought some might be interested in reading this, if you hadn't already seen it on the front page.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?tmpl=NoSidebarfile&db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=17070001&dopt=Abstract

It gets a little complex, but it again shows the kidney/inner ear relationship

Arginine vasopressin is a natural hormone that the body secretes on an as needed basis to retain water when you might be slightly dehydrated. It causes your kidneys to concentrate urine and to slow down its flow. Im not sure i read this right, but when they injected these rats with this hormone, it caused endolymph hydrops. So in theory, meniere's could just be an imbalance of the vasopressin hormone.

 

Thanks Cheese
I tried to read it, couldn't understand it--I wish now I'd gone to medical school just so I could understand more of what I read about Meniere's. Can you explain this basic point for me? How is arginine vasopressin related to arginine? I know of arginine from googling about the herpes virus theory, and the herpes diet recommends foods low in arginine (like chocolate!) and high in lysine.
thanks

 

Im not 100% sure either oaktree. Alot of it goes over my head the 1st time too, and i end having to research all the seperate elements just to make sense of it.

Arginine is essentially just an amino acid that is produced by the digestion of proteins. Arginine vasopressin has a DNA structure that is made up of 9 amino acids, so i'm guessing that the arginine is just one of those amino acids. Im not certain though

And i didnt know of the link between arginine and herpes ...i might look that up

 

From http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/l-arginine/NS_patient-arginine
"Arginine vasopressin is different from arginine/L-arginine, with an entirely different mechanism. NG-monomethyl-L-arginine is different from arginine/L-arginine, and functions as an inhibitor of nitric oxide synthesis"

(Now me talking!) The arginine/lysine link with herpes is the reason why they recommend Llysine when prone to cold sores. I know that doesn't help much... but I found that article interesting so I was just clicking around from it.

Thanks for the heads up Cheese.

Lee

 

Thanks for that link Lee. Interesting.

 

Humpty bumpty

 

Very cool. A while back I posted a poll regarding the kidneys to see how many of us had kidney trouble...I have always thought that there was a big connection between meniere's and some form of EH. I'm glad they're doing this research! THANKS!
Meghan :

 

Thanks for the clarification Cheese and mnme
Nina

 

there was a link to a japanese paper about water drinking recently, their rationale was that this suppresses vasopressin production and could help. Their data wasnt particurly convincing though. Some studies have shown raised vasopressin levels during an acute attack. There seems to be interest in things called aquaporins which I failed to understand but they are involved in water handling in a variety of tissues.
michael

 

Thanks for pointing that out michael

I've got a copy of that study, and at the time of reading it, i had no idea what a vasopressin was. So now to me, that study makes more sense and has more credibility(in my eyes).

 

Great article Cheese!

For those interested, I wanted to point out that caffeine inhibites or slows the breakdown of cAMP.

Gwen

 

Bump if any noobs are interested.

For a better explanation on vasopressins, and aquaporins, try this other vasopressin thread http://www.menieres.org/forum/index.php/topic,1131.15.html



Gwen ....what is cAMP? ...would love to know

 

This is probably not related and proof of nothing but a little over a week ago I fell hard on my left kidney and broke a rib while loading hay onto the back of a truck. Went to the hospital, etc, and luckily no internal injuries but even with the fall and shock to my kidney I haven't noticed a change in hydrops or other Meniere's symptoms. They are the same...

 

Oh Andrew !!! Broken ribs are soo painful , I have broken some from time to time and they take time to heal. Mine kept twisting and had to have massage to get it turned around. Be sure to let it heal so it doesn't do what mine did !!

Do you have a hobby farm, noticed the mention of the word hay?

Sparrow

 

It's my sister and brother-in-law's hobby farm. They have a pony and a horse and some chickens. Earlier this year I helped build a pole barn with them! The rib is getting much better and so far hasn't twisted, thank goodness! Thanks for asking...

 

Just thought I'd bump this badboy up

A new abstract just came up on pubmed about aquaporin and vasopressin receptors in the human endolymphatic sac.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17415141&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Just a recap: Aquaporins are found in the human kidney ......The hormone arginine vasopressin is like their 'on' and 'off' switch ....By on and off I'm referring to the rate of fluid reabsorption. With an increase in vasopressin, the aquaporins within the cells of the kidney respond by 'holding' water.....

Here is a quote from the abstract I just linked to:

"The same characteristic distribution of water and ion channels is seen in the kidney, where a significant amount of fluid is filtrated and resorbed."

This is where my skepticism regarding NUCCA stems from.

Considering fluid homeostasis disorders of the kidney aren't caused by 'bone compression', it makes me wonder why the fluid regulatory system of the inner ear, which seems to be extremely similar to the kidney, would have a cervical origin if 'diseased'.

Considering the similarities to the kidney, in my untrained eyes, it seems much more likely that meniere's is a disorder of cellular or hormonal origins.

 

Cheese,

Do you think it's possible that Meniere's symptoms could be caused by different underlying pathologies? It seems to me that would answer why different therapies help different people. If someone's got a structural underlying problem, affecting circulation, say, then NUCCA might help. If something's up with the kidneys, then NUCCA won't help much. If the symptoms are caused by a virus, then acyclovir might help.

I've heard other people on this board talk about the possibility of there being 10 or more underlying causes, all expressing themselves with similar symptoms.

So I'm wondering if the cause is this vasopressin/kidney thing, what would be the fix for that?

oaktree

 

Good question, nina. I wish I knew the answer to be honest.

I don't necessarily believe that vasopressin is the main and only cause of meniere's.... I wish it was though, because a cure wouldn't be too far away at all. There are already vasopressin 'antagonists' that japanese researchers have toyed with that have showed promise. My doc has been trying to get his hands on some of these vasopressin drugs to have a look at them and maybe trial them, but he hasn't been able to get them.

Regardless of the vasopressin though, I definitely think that faulty aquaporins are the what causes the fluid to build up.

Whether these aquaporins have been programmed to misfire by a virus, auto-immune, vasopressin, genetic make-up, or a poor diet ...I don't know. Of all of the possibilities though, cervical seems the least likely to me. I wouldn't say it's an impossibility though ......Kidney disease can be caused by various blockages, so if part of the ear was to somehow get 'blocked', maybe through cervical impingement, I guess that could cause some problems. Whether NUCCA are the right people to treat such a problem is where I reckon it starts to get dodgey.

It's just an opinion though ....I really have no real idea wtf i'm talking about

But in summary ...I do wish the problem was as simple as vasopressin. Theoretically, a pill could simply turn down vasopressin production, and that could maybe send the disease into total remission ...... Wishful thinking though ..I guess nothing is that simple.

 

Cheese,

Wouldn't that be awesome? We could all take a pill in the morning and then we'd be fine. I look forward to the day--

Nina

 

You lost me way back there when you started talking about it.LOL