Not for the faint of heart

I'm sure I could've used a different word other than breeding,but I didn't.I know I probably come across as a bigot but I'm really not.I generally like all people except for the ones who do harm to me or others.

In answer to your question,Christians on this board would take offense to my remarks.
I apologize if I've hurt other peoples feelings here.Maybe you're right.There's good and bad in everybody.Maybe this is a fault I never realized I had.I sincerely thank you for bringing this to my attention.I'll have to think long and hard whether I am a bigot or not.Maybe I am.I know I say I believe in the Golden Rule,but do I? I don't know right now since I just might be a bigot.I know I once used a derogatory word to a Hawaiian at work one day,calling him a chink.That was about 30 years ago.I know I've called blacks,schwatzes and gentiles goyim.I have no excuse for my bigotry.My parents,grandparents were Jewish.This is how we talked.At about the age of 12 I pretty much knew religion was a scam but I got bar-Mitzvahed anyways to appease my orthodox grand parents.After I got Bar-Mitzvahed I never set foot in a synagogue again.But I guess my bigotry clung to me.
Now I have to decide whether I'm going to continue to be a bigot or change for the better.I know it's never too late to change.But do I?The past is past.I can't change what happened in the past,but I can change my thinking today.Well that's for me to decide.I know if I treat people properly I won't push them away.I'll actually draw people to me.People will think favorably of me.Of course the important thing is, is to feel good about myself.

 

Statistics seem to vary.Case in point:
http://www.soundvision.com/info/yearinreview/2001/profile.asp

 

When I was forced to live in Libya, at times I was forced to wear the hijab (scarf) and / either long sleeved loose shirt and long skirt that touched the ground or my shoes and/ or a burqa type cloak. I was forced to wear these garments when I appeared in front of the regime and the Imman (sp) and other times when I was out in public. I rebelled and sometimes did not wear them. I asked why? Why do I have to wear them because I am not a Muslim. The answers: for my safety and to keep men from looking/lusting after me. It was my responsibility to keep men from wanting me - etc. Those were the answers. Period.

However, numerous times, when I went to weddings and social occasions - where only women were allowed - I was embarassed and somewhat astonished as to what most women wore underneath their burqas. Their clothing was...very revealing and sexual. Their shoes were spiked heals with fishnet stockings and very tight and short skirts - etc. It was like watching a butterfly emerge from its cocoon. Their makeup was extreme. I , in general, dress very modestly and sometimes the clothing I saw other women wear made me blush. However, as soon as it was announced that a man was entering (groom) or the party was over - they _the women_ would quickly put on their burqas, hijabs, etc and their whole attitude would change.

I believe that we Americans dress way too provactively - especially in young girl and women and with women who are older and try to dress young. Respect for yourself is the key and dressing with modesty is signs of positive self attitude.

When I was told I had to dress with a hijab or burqa - I felt oppressed and was angered - not because of the clothes but from the fact that I simply had no choice. Other women who were Libyan by birth and Muslim confided in me that they wore the clothing because it was easier to wear what was wanted by their husband and/or family than to go against them. In honestly, I found the hijabs to be very beautiful and feminine and found beauty in the Libyan women. Someone said it is cultural rather religous and I found this to be true - and it was also what your husband desired or family wanted as well. I could go on but this is not the time nor place to express my life's experiences. Peace to all...

 

In my opinion of having a Mosque at ground zero - well it is in bad form and in bad taste. There are plenty of other locations that a Mosque would be welcomed. Honestly, it is bad breeding on the man (people behind him). But if a Mosque is built it will not break America or tarnish her - it just will look bad on the people behind the Mosque. Bad taste indeed. These are my opinions only and I'm not open to debate.

I am not anti Islam or anti any religion. Many people were hurt and fallen - people from all nations, race, creed, lifestyles, religions - etc...why not put a structure or park that is in remembrance to them all and their families. A Mosque would be a permament remembrance of the cowards (who professed to be Islamic - in which if they were true Muslims they would have not done such a cowardly act) who boarded those planes that day and wreaked havoc and terror on many.

I have seen terrorism first hand - death and destruction - murder of many by only a few...until a person has seen it first hand - it is very hard to understand...i am done with this post it is too painful and full of memories to continue

 

Women here have the right to dress anyway they want,after all they're not responsible for how or what a man feels.Only the man is responsible for how he feels and a woman is responsible for how she feels.We own our own feelings,do we not? It's like saying,"you made me feel offended by the way you dress"vs."I feel offended by the way you dress".

 

I am offended by the way some people dress. I don't want/ need to see nipples and breasts hanging out or butt cheeks - etc. It is bad form and bad example for our younger girls and women.

We are responsible for our own feelings. I've worked with abused women and the men who abused them - and one key issue was how she dressed. I am not saying we should all dress like Nuns but have some self respect and modesty. There's a time and place for all types of dress.

 

What you say is very true.My friend's daughter is an orthodox Jew.I remember going to her house one day during the summer and it was hot in her house,she had no air-conditioning.She was dressed from head to toe,only her hands and face was uncovered.She wore some sort of scarf or head covering and this was in her own home during the summer.Her mother is also a Jew but not orthodox.She dresses any way she likes and doesn't associate with anyone from the orthodox community.Her mothers name is Arlene.At one time about 20 years ago she was married to a Muslim and she lived with this man and his family in Luxor and Hurgada in Egypt.He was Arlene's second husband.When she lived with him she wore a mumu(sp?).I currently don't know her marital status,but she now lives alone in Colorado Springs,Colo.Arlene and I were just friends,nothing more.I no longer have contact with her.

 

Barnyardbird -- I think you need to actually meet some average, everyday people who practice Islam to get this notion out of your head that your country is being infested with something non-human and alien. At least that's how you describe it. You'll soon find that they are just like you with the same needs and desires but follow a different book and worship a slightly different invisible man and that's about it. Once you experience this, and maybe even try some delicious food from another country, you'll lose this irrational perspective and one would hope you'll bury your bigotry with it.

S

 

I'm giving this some serious thought and what does happen to me is the following: for example, here in Bondi, we have a large Jewish population. Some of them are Orthodox Jews and so wear all of the gear – lots of black hats, beards, and skin so white it appears bleached. Sometimes I catch myself thinking "how on earth do they allow themselves to walk around wearing that get-up and why don't they go out and get some sun". So, in this sense I am most definitely judging them but I am aware of that and tell myself to not go there, that it is their worldview and mine isn't the only one that is valid. But no, I cannot say that there is any category of people that I dislike intensely.

 

My family is moderately racist. One mention of Indians (India, Pakistan, etc) and my brothers sneer. My mother makes comments about the "blacks" in Toronto. I had the same thinking when I lived in Canada 25 years ago. Since then, I've travelled around India, checked out the way life is for them, ate their fabulous food and experienced their hospitality which is why I said the above to barnyardbird. It must be another thing wired into human beings. If you're not from the same clan, we are quick to judge and even threatened by different cultural practices. When my brothers sneer now I get stuck into them and try to make them see it another way.

 

Hi Jordan. I usually don't get into this, but, I feel as Jordan does. My son who is 28 and I were discussing this the other day and he said what you put Jordan for the last sentence.
Let's take something positive away from the current political climate and learn to talk more.

Joy, I agree too.

Amen to both of your replies.

 

Scott,

We are actually hard wired into identifying more easily with those who look like us (i.e. same racial group). There have been studies on this (of course I can't find one now, but there really are studies) that show that when person from racial group "A" looks at a person from different racial group "B", they really do "all look the same". I believe the theory is that during our (ahem) "evolution" we are wired to recognise those from the same "tribe" as us more easily than those from a different tribe.

In recent history there was a case in the US where a white woman was raped in her home by a black man. The victim identified her attacker from a line up. She was 100% confident that he was the rapist. He protested his innocence. Years later DNA evidence (not available at the time of the offence) 100% cleared him of the crime. Using the DNA police caught the real rapist. He was black, but did not really look that much like the wrongly convicted man.

Barnyardbird,

I'm so pleasantly blown away by your post about bigotry. It takes amazing insight to consider the possibility that you may be bigoted, a strong sense of self to commit to considering it and amazing courage to post about it on the internet. I think we all (self included) do well to challenge our own assumptions.

As for burquas and the women who wear them. It is a tough one. As I said earlier, I really struggle with the concept. It does not sit well with me. I don't like that the responsiblity for controlling men's lust rest with women (i.e. covering themselves up). This seems such a throw back to the days when we used to tell victims of rape they shouldn't have worn a short skirt or been out alone at night - classic blaming of the victim. As men are the perpetrators of these crimes why don't we throw out the burqua and say that men must always be accompanied by a woman (to stop them attacking other women) and impose a curfew (say, 8pm). Sound crazy? No more crazy to me than making women responsible for preventing attacks on them/or inciting male lust by wearing a burqua. BUT I am troubled by the French banning the burqua. For a couple of reasons. One - France is a country which vehemently separates church and state. So, if they are banning the burqua, and people take the burqua to be a religious icon (even though as discussed above, it's often cultural) then should they also ban the wearing of crucifix pendants? Two, in a free country shouldn't people be allowed to wear whatever they choose?

It is my hope that people the world over do not give in to fear of "the other" and learn to tolerate and accept each other. I know that sounds a bit hippy trippy but I really do think it's worth it.

Finally I think everyone has some degree of bigotry within them, myself included. The challenge is to constantly confront and question that bigotry. On the other hand, I am no moral relativist. I think there are times when it's OK to make judgements. For example - I don't think it is ever OK to mutilate the genitals of a child - whether it's the boy babies of Jewish parents or the girl children of Muslim parents (although my understanding is that FGM is NOT a requirement of Islam, it is often claimed it is).

 

I think the main problem here is that this outfit is such that we cannot identify who the person is behind it and that's the issue and probably where the line should be drawn. The person becomes faceless. Just like it's not on to wear a motorcycle helmet in the bank. So, for me, I would support a burqa ban because 1) I think we should at least be able to see a person's face and 2) I think it was instigated in the first place because of male insecurity.

 

Scott,

What if someone has a hideous facial deformity - do they have to show their face in public even if it makes them horribly self concious? What about surgical masks when people have the flu ?

I agree with you that there are certain situations where anyone needs to show their face - eg banks, Customs/borders or giving evidence (see recent case where Judge ruled a woman had to remove her face covering when giving evidence in court). BUT (other than in banks) I see guys (especially motorcycle couriers) wearing their helmets all the time.

I also agree with your reasoning for why you don't like the burqua but my problem is with banning it, rather than say, discouraging it (through open discussion, education etc).

 

INS -- LOL, I knew you'd hit me with that!

I think if someone has a facial deformity it's reasonable that they should want to cover up to prevent people staring at their gash or missing eye or whatever that brings them to having to fully cover up and not feel like a walking freak show.

Re motorcycle helmets and flu masks: Well, they serve a purpose right? As in preventing someone's head from exploding if they stack their Harley or stopping the spread of the plague. But apart from a religious thing invented no doubt by men to keep their insecurity in check, I don't see any good purpose for full facial coverage with a burqa.

Hmmm ... I hear ya on the ban thing but would "discouraging" it accomplish anything? They'd just wear it anyway.

 

Scott : Hmmm ... I hear ya on the ban thing but would "discouraging" it accomplish anything? They'd just wear it anyway.

So you advocate enforced emancipation? A little ironically paternalistic don't you think?

 

So, hypothetically, how would you discourage the burqa if that occurred? Would we have a signs up in train stations saying "we'd really prefer you didn't wear burqas but if you do we'll reluctantly put up with you anyway"? Or would we have certain places where they were OK but others where they were outlawed -- such as banks and airports -- and before entering they'd have to undress and reorganise?

 

Thanks for your comments but I don't really feel any better.I'm not proud to label myself a bigot but as Popeye used to say,"I am what I am".Of course it doesn't mean that I can't change,I can if I really want to.Change has to come from within.Change won't come from comments made on this board.But I acknowledge that I am a bigot.I'm probably a racist as well.But I've never been arrested nor committed any crimes,so for that I feel pretty good about myself.OTOH,my blood boils when I hear about or read about crimes committed by the religion industry.Personally I think Men who rape should get castrated.

 

I am just an old country boy, who is not the brighest bulb in the box. Haven't traveled to all these places that you folks have and havn't experienced some of the things that you folks are talking about. I am a Christain, try to live my life that way. As part of being a Christain I try to love everybody.
There are some that it is easier to love than others reguardless of religion. We live in a sinful world and there are bad things and bad people out there of all religions. I am not trying to step on anyones toes or hurt anyonese feelings, I just want to understand.
The thing that I fear about Muslims is the contradictions, and this could be my ignorance as much as anything. I have already said that I am not the brighest bulb in the box but I do want to understand.
I believe that there are Muslims that I would be more than happy to call my friend. Welcome them into my home. I also am led to believe that there are Muslims out there who would just as soon kill me as look at me. My problem is how do I tell the difference? Of course there are some in this thread that will say that how do you tell the difference between Christians? Good point that I do not have an answer to. Going back to some points earlier in this thread I am sure that there are people out there who call themselves Christians that have done horrible things. There is not a question about this at all. Like I have already said we live in a sinful world full of sinful people. But when the Catholic priest takes advantage of a young boy did he do it in the name of his religion or because his God told him to or to get his ticket into heaven? Before the Catholic folks get in a uproar I am using this as an example of my point. I am not trying to put the Catholic religion or any religion down at all. I have already said I try to love everyone.
What is scary for me is the Muslims that are on this "religious war" are doing the things that they do in the name of their religion. It may be a small number of bad apples (you can make statistics look any way you want so I am not going to get into that) messing up the whole bunch. When them bad ones mess up the mess up big time in the name of their religion. When was the last time someone placed a bomb somewhere in the name of Jesus or in the name of their religion. When was the last time someone Ran a plane into a building killing thousands in the name of Budda(or the name of any God you want to fill in here)?
If a Muslim moves in next door to me, I will try to love them the best that i can. Love your neighbor as yourself and I will try to do that. I am going to be honest with you it will always be in the back of my mind, which type of Muslim are you? One that is a loving kind soul or one that is plotting to bomb my business or a place that my child might be in the name of their religion?
Let me end this with, how can you really tell what your neighbor is like. I could shake their hand at the church/temple/synogue door and They could be the next serial killer. We just do not know.
But are they serial killing in the name of their religion as their way to get to heaven?
From a country boy this is where the fear comes from.

 

Barnyardbird,

I'm glad you're seeing this for what it is. I think that's a MASSIVE first step and it's good that you can observe this. Look, no one here is perfect with all of this but if you can be aware of it and try and grab a new perspective on this I think some of the things written in this thread are a great start. Maybe you could make a concerted effort to focus on what is good about Muslim people instead of letting the negative crap take over all the time. I'm not sure how you would systematically approach this to root out this thinking or at least diminish it but you can if you really change the focus. Too bad you can't be dropped into a country like Turkey for a while. It's awesome and you'd soon find that there were some very cool muslim people in places like that.