Discussion in 'Your Living Room' started by gtrvox, Aug 6, 2007.
Sam, regarding trauma, can you explain what you believe to be the actual pathology that would result in Hydrops? In other words, how would a head trauma that you describe leave someone with Hydrops?
Thanks very much,
George..tell me if i am on the right track..
i look at things in car terms....i have a car that has a bad vibration...so whats causing it
worn tie rods
bent rim...etc the list can go on but the result is the same...bad vibration....
i think its the same with the the hydrops deal...can be many causes...
frequent ear infections
multiple concussions/head trauma
enviroment...etc ....i think there are alot of things that may cause it...but how do ya fix it...and i also thing that the eustation tube being clogged up has a big part in it also...is there anyway to clean it out ? lol...
i do believe that there is a cure out there....if its broken it can be fixed...least the vibration can... =)
Heavy: Dr. Rauch (Boston Ear/Eye Clinic) has a bunch of vids on the clinic website and he uses precisely the same comparison as you. He compares a bad ear to a clunker car...it will get you places but you have to take extremely good care of it all the time!
Most likely you are right, though we are much farther from understanding hydrops than car vibrations.
Now, can you come over and have a look at my Acura? The front end seems a bit loose...I think the ball joints are getting suspiciously noisy
Excellent post and great thread. Well to simplify the action, the quick blow causes the fluid in the semicircular canals to slam against the nerve sensors (hairs) and it damages them. Much like comparing a calm ocean tide to a Tsunami. Comparing the normal action of calmly moving the nerve hairs to a sudden violent action, slamming them. Some folks have stronger nerve hairs than others. Some of these nerve sensors that control endolymph malfunction, thus hydrops. May times PLF also results as the staple bone somehow damages a membrane allowing the inner ear fluild to escape into the middle ear. More folks have PLF than doctors will admit. PLF is difficult top treat and requires personal responsibility which isn't much fun. Now this is not all 100% accurate, but should give you the general idea. I will see if the inner ear primer is still online. It explains all this with drawings and text. Sam
Your comments about head trauma makes me think about all those spills I took when I used to ride horses and didn't wear my hardhat. And then to go back to birth............. now don't laugh............ doc had to use forcepts on my head to get me out, LOL.
I know it's way out there, but thanks for listening anyway, LOL.
Sparrow, I don't think it's way out there! Those could be real causative factors - of course, you'll never know for sure.
I happen to have a chronic neck problem (left side) and upper back problem - also the same side as my hydrops. According to everything I've read here by Hank (as well as what my NUCCA practitioner says), those could all be pieces of the puzzle!
Incidentally, my mother told me on the phone today that my 80 year uncle has been diagnosed with Meniere's. Somewhat old, I'd think, for an MM dx...but who's to know?
With the many things that may cause MM or hydrops...i think thats why each person responds differently to the treatments that are out there...it depends on what caused there particular case...now the Acura...its a ricer...put some neon lites on it..you will be way cool =)
Hehehehe, just learned a new word: "ricer" - had to look it up! Pimp my ride
My mother is currently going through the process of being dx'd with meniere's - she's been sick for approximately 1 year and she'll be 70 soon.
Many older folks have vestibular disorder from their inner ear aging. Nothing doing with a so called Meniere's disease, just another part of the body that is wearing out. All those years of wear and tear on the nerve hairs is starting to show. Ever wonder why so many old folks have balance issues?
It is such a shame doctors don't tell it like it is. Reminds me of Larry the Cable Guy saying his Grandma died at 103 and ... he was asked what she died from. Another mystery ... well er ... let's see ... er I know skydiving.
Doesn't an aged worn out inner ear ever occur to these doctors?
Sparrow I agree with George that it isn't way out there. Forcepts have caused retardation, so ELH from this method isn't hard to believe. Those falls off the horses didn't help. Look at Christopher Reeves. Interesting that many soldiers suffering "shellshock" have been found to have hydrops. Your thinking now for yourself and soon you will understand a lot more about your illness.
In this case, my mom was first dx with BPPV. Her doctor seemed to do so because of her age, not her symptoms. He thought vertigo + ederly must equal BPPV. She may have a little BPPV going on but that's not the main problem. She has been suffering through vertigo attacks every second day for months now, and drop attacks approximately once/week. The onset was over a year ago and she has gone through good cycles and bad cycles. These days her symptoms are getting worse.
I'm hoping the new doctor she'll be seeing will do all the proper testing to rule out other causes. I'd love to hear it's something treatable. What's really odd is that my mom and I both became ill at very close to the same time, although I went for further testing and she did not. Our symptoms are different - my dx is cochlear hydrops and her symptoms are much more vestibular. Perhaps we were exposed to some virus at the same time? It's always possible but we were barely around each other and I was never sick prior to the sudden onset of my symptoms. The other interesting thing, we recently learnt that my great, great aunt had a meniere's dx as well (she was a doctor who had to stop practicing due to the illness).
Ya know i am thinking that having a dx isnt even that big of a deal....instead they should find different way to treat the hydrops problems....finding the particular cause in each person and a treatment would be alot better...i dont care if they tell me i have to drive a "ricer" for the rest of my life it would cure the pressure/hydrops/vertigo...*(altho it would s**k)lol...and they call label MM with what they want...call it gooober syndrom if they like...the treatments such as VNS/shunt/sac-decompresson etc...its all just a band-aid approach...kinda like putting a plastic bag over a broken window..its gonna work for just a little while.....btw..george drives a ricer...lol...and he wants it pimped =)
Thanks, Sam. That explanation, however, does not explain how those who have had upper cervical trauma, causing hydrops and Meniere's symptoms, have found relief or cure through upper cervical chiropractic. Your explantion of the pathology, for example, does not explain my case at all. In spring of 2006, I had my first vertigo episode. With it came a regular cycle of building fullness, building tinnitus, hearing loss, then vertigo after which all would be calm and pretty well back to normal. Then all would repeat taking from 2-4 weeks to fully accomplish the next cycle of symptoms. I was diagnosed with Meniere's. I had it for 6 months. Then I began upper cervical chiropractic. That treatment broke the cycle immediately. And after finding the right practicianer and approach, my Meniere's (I know, it's a myth) is a thing of the past. I am left with a low but slightly variable degree of tinnitus, which is very tolerable. Most of the time I do not notice it. Now, you might say that I did not have hydrops. That I do not believe will wash because only Hydrops would account for the symptoms during that time period. So, it seems to me that there must be a different pathology for Hydrops, one that can account for the my symptoms and the symptoms for all of those folks who like me have been treated and cured or benefited from chiropractic. My theories on this are well documented on other threads and continue to be refined. I am curious as to your take on this. The nerve hair theory does not seem to explain any of this. I do not see the nerve hairs of the inner ear responding to upper cervical chiropractic.
Thanks, a very interesting and informative thread here.
Hank, The symptoms you describe as being dx Meniere's in my opinion were not hydrops, but vestibular disturbance from a problem that chiropractic manipulation corrected. Did you have a VEMP? Any other test to confirm hydrops? If your "Meniere's was dx on symptoms, then what was causing your problems is just guess work. Hydrops is not the only disorder to cause the symptoms you describe. I believe that by the ENT board ruling all proper Meniere's labels are hydrops, however in reality a Meniere's label can be several things. Virus can cause the symptoms you had without hydrops. I would refer you to Dr. Gaceks book for more details on this. What I described was hydrops from trauma. Hydrops isn't curable, but can be controlled. The only possible explanation how manipulations could help is if pinched blood vessels feeding the brain and inner ear were unpinched and restored necessary blood circulation to the inner ear. This would apply hydrops or not.
Yes, many successful reports of "Meniere's" folks using chiropractic treatments has been documented. Here is the problem ... none of these folks had a proper medical diagnosis, they received the Meniere's label based on symptoms that may or may not have been hydrops. Vestibular therapy for trauma is a physical therapy regimen. The Epley maneuvers for BPPV is a physical therapy and some chiropractors now use it. I went to a great chiropractor for years and the only fault I found with him was his idea that naturapathy could heal everything. His Lysine and Olive leaf regimen did do anything to touch my Zoster virus. He was opposed to antiviral and I now suffer permanant damage from such outdated thinking. His tinnitus treatment only made me worse. He was gentle, but still agrivated my hydrops that neither of us knew I had then.
Chiropractory is like antiviral or diet or surgery ... it works if your problems are caused by some issue it addresses. If you don't have a virus, then antiviral is wrong ... removing a tumor that doesn't exist sure won't help, or doing the Epley maneuvers for hydops may just agrivate it further.
Let's review the topic .... hydrops not the cause of MM symptoms?? MM used to mean Morbus Meniere or a "disease of its own kind" as described by Meniere's. I agree and disagree ... I disagree because the symptoms Dr. Meniere described are consistent with hydrops from other disease, not a "disease of its own kind." I agree that every so called dx of Meniere's is not from ELH. This is because ENT board guidelines are not followed. In your instance Hank, you recovered to almost normal after the vertigo. This by ENT board guidelines wasn't Meniere's ... Meniere's requires permanant hearing loss ... if you recover it can't be Meniere's by definition. Again the problem with the title of this post is there is no agreement on what constitutes Meniere's. Does hydrops cause Meniere's symptoms? In my opinion no because Meniere's doesn't exist. In my opinion you never had Meniere's or hydrops, but vestibular malfunction from constricted blood vessels and pinched nerves.
Really it is hard to say in your case, but without at least 2 VEMP's, I would question whether you had ELH. It cannot be dx just by symptoms. I don't always agree with Dr. Hain and I am undecided on his writing here, but thought you might find this page of help to resolving your symptom causes and why they responded to treatment.
For head trauma and vertigo,etc., many Neuro-otologist and some chiropractors recommend the Cawthorne exercises.
The Cawthorne exercises are a form of physical therapy designed to decrease symptoms of dizziness and vertigo. Do one set in the morning and one set in the evening, as follows:
Sit in a chair. Keep your upper body and head still and move your eyes. Look up, then down, repeating this process 10 times. Look left, then right and repeat this process 10 times.
Move your head. Look up, then down and repeat this process 10 times. Rotate your head to the left, then right, repeating this process 10 times.
Sit down, and bend forwards from your waist. Repeat this process 10 times. Bend to the left and then the right. Repeat this process 10 times.
As fun as this is it always made me go into vertigo, however it has really helped many and worth consideration.
...Many times with a physical therapy like a chiro adjustment, there also come dietary changes. I'm not doubting that chiropratic works, but that we shouldn't downplay dietary changes.