Here is my Problem With NUCCA and Atlas Alignment

Discussion in 'Your Living Room' started by nassman, Mar 1, 2007.

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  1. Hank, here are some comments. You won't like some of them.

    The situation as I see it is that Hank is making the case for a hypothesis. I wouldn't go so far as to say Menieres can be cured but I would state the hypothesis as follows: Cervical trauma causes Meniere's attacks.

    (These in turn cause damage to the inner ear that may or may not heal once the cervical trauma has been corrected. That is a different matter.)

    In order to turn that into a sound theory we would have to have good double-blind studies. For example, we could have the appropriate X-rays taken of 50 "normals" and 50 "meniereans" by one individual, and then let a NUCCA chiroproactor look at the X rays and pick out the ones who he believes are MM sufferers. (It may turn out that a specific type of misalignment--out of all the different types of alignment--causes MM.)

    But correlation Does Not equal causation.

    Stipulating that what they have been "cured" of is the vertigo attacks and any further progressive damage to the inner ear, and that the inner ear has not necessarily regenerated this is an impressive claim.

    Absence of evidence is never conclusive.

    This is an important point you have tried to make but I do not think has come across to some people. Once surgery has been done (e.g., a VNS, Gent injections, or obviously a labyrynthectomy), by hypothesis there is not only the cervical trauma but direct damage to the inner ear that are working together to cause problems. Since these surgeries basically consist of removing or destroying a "bad" part chiropractic (or anything else one could imagine) can only do so much to fix things. (I have had dex injections; I don't think they fit into this category since as far as I know Dex is not damaging).

    You must be careful to make sure people know what you mean by "cured."

    ...many if not most people on this board have reached this point. I suspect I am one of them. This is why I suggest you ALWAYS qualify any reference to a "cure" by explaining precisely what it is you mean by it.

    covered above.

    Damn good point (I think I've made it myself!)

    We'd really need rigorous studies for this. You are essentially saying "you haven't proved me wrong so I must be right" and that is fallacious.

    You cannot prove that the tooth fairy does not exist, but that fact does not prove that the tooth fairy does exist.

    Mind you I think you are more likely to be correct than the believers in the tooth fairy; I used that example to illustrate the fallacy. What you have over them is some evidence (but not enough!) in favor of your proposition (hypothesis). Enough evidence that I think additional study is justified. Lacking the resources for such a study, I've gone ahead and made myself a guinea pig. Even if it works for me though, it is NOT proof.

    I think the chances of a second random trauma neatly reversing the effects of the first trauma are slim to none in actual fact. (Like having a fender bender, then driving over a rock and having your tire kick the rock up into your undercarriage in such a way that it just happens to pound the dent out. Sorry about the weak analogy; I am actually making a point here that is related to (of all things) statistical thermodynamics.)

    However, it doesn't need to be a perfect reversal; just one that knocks the atlas out of one of the configurations that leads (according to hypothesis) to the MM attacks.
  2. Aladdin

    Aladdin Guest

    In 1988, a very hot summer night in Phoenix Arizona, I ended spending up a long time in a neurological hospital from a car accident. Furthermore, years later had treatment for a bad/injured neck and shoulder. Other incidences in Africa made conditions worse for my neck and shoulder. I spent hunders of thousands of dollars and countless times in hospitals, clinics, chiro, hollistic, you name it I did it for my neck and shoulder. Some helped while others did not. In the spring of 2004, MM and SCD were diagnosed. The symptoms from those two diseases never appeared until the very end of 2003 and early 2004. With my neck there are over lapping symptoms with mm but MM and SCD have very specific triggers and symptoms - never once while being treated for cervical disorder did I have vertigo triggered by sound or noise - and/or pressure - never once did I have the MM attack - now I hate the pain and trauma caused to my neck and shoulders because the pain is so bad at times that I cry and I know that can trigger stress and that can trigger fatigue and trigger a potential threat for MM - I have no problem with NUcca whatever could it help my neck maybe, propably, would that help my overall pain threshold and stress yes but in my recent experiences any chirpratic (sp) work done to my neck/shoulder/head area has usually triggered an mm attack or made the vertigo and vomitting so bad that I can not further my visits - i'm not talking one or two but months to years of trying this

    if NUCCA helps you - Great - if it doesn't help I am sorry and do hope you find some relief - But stop beating this dead horse - I tend to go back to Nassman's original statements and agree -
  3. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Hi Steve,

    "Hank, here are some comments. You won't like some of them."

    Quite the contrary, I like all your comments, very constructive, very thoughtful, well laid out. As time permits, I'll look at a couple of items you brought up.

    "The situation as I see it is that Hank is making the case for a hypothesis. I wouldn't go so far as to say Menieres can be cured but I would state the hypothesis as follows: Cervical trauma causes Meniere's attacks. (These in turn cause damage to the inner ear that may or may not heal once the cervical trauma has been corrected. That is a different matter.)
    In order to turn that into a sound theory we would have to have good double-blind studies. For example, we could have the appropriate X-rays taken of 50 "normals" and 50 "meniereans" by one individual, and then let a NUCCA chiroproactor look at the X rays and pick out the ones who he believes are MM sufferers. (It may turn out that a specific type of misalignment--out of all the different types of alignment--causes MM.)"

    I take comment and understand it; still within my chosen study group it is a theory, not just a hypothesis. My chosen study group of course is myself. You will recall the title of my first post: "The Cause and Successful Treatment of My Meniere's." Once, my theory was, like you said, an hypothesis. It was a hypothesis when my wife came out of the chiropractors office and told me that the butterfly flutter she heard before her adjustment had vanished during her adjustment. At that moment, I hypothesized that what she heard was in some way related to what I was hearing at the time. And because her butterfly tinnitus disappeared as a direct result of chiropractic adjustment, I hypothesized that my Meniere's might do the same thing. To test that theory, I decided to become, as you say, a human guinea pig. Now keep in mind, I tested everyone in my study group, everyone of course being myself. And what I found was that everyone tested became cured, 100% of Meniere's as I define the term, "cured." Now that is quite remarkable for everyone in the study group, that being myself. So for me, as I have stated almost ad nauseum, this theory is completely tested and it explains every symptom I have ever had with Meniere's. Furthermore it predicts the transformation that I have experienced with 100% accuracy. So with respect to myself, the hypothesis passed teh test, furthering the theory that accurately explains and predicts my experiences.

    I understand that outside of my own little universe there are laws of the bigger universe that may overrule those of my chosen smaller one. And anyone who views the totality of what I have posted on this site will notice numerous disclaimers, both expressed and implied, in my writings.

    Now, will my theory, the one that explains my symptoms and my recovery work for you or anyone else? You, Steve, have elected to become a human guinea pig like myself. You are conducting an experiment much like I did. And if it works for you, then my truth is your truth. If it doesn't, our truths diverge. What will remain true to me is not true to you. But yet that is true in every area of human endeavor, is it not? Why should this be any different. My truths do not necessarily transcend my chosen universe; neither do your truths of yours.

    I accept your criticism that my theory is but an hypothesis to you or anyone who tries it. I reject, however, that within your chosen study group, that being yourself, if this course ultimately works for you, that you will still deny the theory.

    "But correlation Does Not equal causation."

    Quite right, Steve. I agree and would be foolish not to. What I ask that people judge for themselves however is the striking pattern I relate above. And at some point, if enough people on this forum choose to seek chiropractic care, the study group you hope for may manifest. After all, who really cares if the theory becomes recognized as anything but an hypothesis if as a result, people are being helped? All the theory in the world is not worth a dime unless someone benefits. The converse is also true; that when people benefit, when their symptoms are relieved; when they are able to get on with their lives, ultimatley who cares about the reason why? If every new sufferrer of Meniere's happened to find relief, I wouldn't be sitting here pontificating about whether my theory or my hypothesis is valid to others. The point would no longer matter. Simply put, I know that what I write about here cured my Meniere's. I know that I am not alone; that there are thousands of folks out there who suffer much more than I ever did that can benefit if they just realize what is causing their problem. Each one of them has the ability to accept or reject anything I write. At the risk of repeating, I believe people would be wise to use a rule of reason when deciding what course to follow; that they should gather all the best information available to them and make informed decisions. That is why I say that 'You are your own best doctor; eveyone else is merely a consultant.' I could have much more easily posted what I have to say in just one simpler post that said, "Try this. It worked for me and might work for you too." But do you think that anyone would have taken me seriously? But that in a nutshell is what I mean to say in every post I place on this forum. I do not care if I am right. I just care that people get better from this thing I once knew all too imtimately.

    "You are essentially saying "you haven't proved me wrong so I must be right" and that is fallacious."

    I believe you infer much more than I imply. If I meant to say that, I would have. I did not say that and did not mean to. That entire statement I state catagorically as a misinterpretation of anything I have written or meant. I do not mean that you are anything but genuine when you state the inference you gathered from my writing. And I thank you for pointing out the erroneous interpretation so that I can be more clear. I do however deny that such an interpretation is correct to any meaning I have offered on this forum.

    'You must be careful to make sure people know what you mean by "cured."'

    Looking back, I think I have defined my terms fairly. If anyone checks back on my post they will note my definition of the term, 'cured.' I really don't know how better to express it than to state it plainly like I did.

    "I think the chances of a second random trauma neatly reversing the effects of the first trauma are slim to none in actual fact. "

    I disagree. One thing I have learned recenty from Dr. Dickholtz is that the Atlas 'wants' to go back in place. It has a general tendancy to do so, but sometimes needs chiropractic help to do so. It takes but the most gentle nudge to get it to snap back. There are so many folks out there with vanilla Meniere's that the odds I believe are in my favor on this; but on this point we just may have to disagree.

    "Mind you I think you are more likely to be correct than the believers in the tooth fairy."

    I take that as a major breakthrough in our relationship. ;D

    Good thought-provoking post, Steve.


  4. cheese

    cheese New Member

    Good level headed post, Steve. You summed it up better than I'm just about to I think.

    And Hank, please don't personal take offense to any of the below. It's the industry itself that the majority of my frustration is aimed at, not you.

    I have never disputed that.

    However, "you" does not equal "most, if not all" ....that's a discrepancy of millions of people

    lol ....nice use of 100%

    How many countless patients walked through their door with the exact same "tilt" with zero vestibular symptoms?! That's a rhetorical question.

    Surely you can understand that that is not proof of any kind.

    It's a shame that you testify to the fact, but Dr. Dickholtz won't..... and that is MY problem with all of this.

    A scour of the national library of medicine revealed a whopping ONE Dickholtz article. One which didn't mention vertigo.

    Considering that vertigo and dizziness is one the worlds most common complaints, and also one of the hardest to treat, it seems suspect that a doctor who says he has "100%" vertigo heal rate has zero published findings. Especially considering the fact that he carries the tag of "Doctor". These guys aren't Joe Blow pedaling snake oil on a street corner ....They're also not people like, Lee, who may have trouble getting the right people to listen. These are supposed medical men.

    It smells like utter bullshit to me. And if it isn't, I can only ask the question "why hasn't he" .....Is he just lazy?! ....Is he scared of what the results will show?! Is he a liar?! Is he severely stretching the truth?!

    A positive clinical result certainly wouldn't be bad for business, it'd be great. However, results that show a figure substantially less than the 100% cure rate figure that keeps getting thrown around mightn't be the best move in a business sense.

    I've said it before, but if Medtronic/Xomed can do it, why won't a world wide chiropractic association do it?!

    Meniere's sufferers hold their necks stiff as a board to keep their vision still, and their balance manageable. It's a form of compensation, though not a very healthy one.

    I went and saw a neuro-surgeon when I was in the process of getting diagnosed, and I mentioned the possibility of poor posture contributing to my symptoms. He said that if you went to a footy game, and x-ray'd everyone's neck in the crowd, a massive proportion of them would have worse looking x-rays than mine, and show zero ill effect. zero.

    It's a debatable finding though. I just wish we weren't the ones debating it. These "founding doctors" who claim "100% success" should be putting in the hard yards to get these ideas heard ...not you, or not me.

    eh? eH?

    The fact that millions of people would show "cervical trauma" on their X-rays with ZERO vestibular symptoms shows just as much "proof", if not more, than the hypothesis you propose.

    With all due respect, Hank, you've been here 6 weeks. Many people have been helped by many different things. The people who are well rarely post here as the don't feel the need. I haven't been here all that long either, but this boards cures comes in waves. For instance, when I first joined here, A LOT of people were gaining substantial relief from gluten free diets.

    It's not irresponsible at all to say that you have been cured. You're telling your own story, and it's an important story to be heard.

    However, It is irresponsible to say "most, if not all" people can be cured, when there is zero published evidence to even closely back up that claim.

    And to be honest I really don't see much, if any, evidence cited above, like you stated there was.
  5. Mnme

    Mnme Guest

    Hank, your comment above is false. Under a few of the threads you've been involved in, I've written of my full success (hearing and all) without NUCCA. You may not notice you're doing it, but you keep bypassing what I say because it isn't specifically about NUCCA.

    There is one key thing everyone keeps missing regarding 'cure' or no 'cure'... 'resolution of symptoms' or 'no resolution of symptoms' ... whatever you want to call it. It's this: Every study performed/Discipline/Doctor appointment is either about a product or selling a treatment (involving money). Yet the ONLY way I found my true answers was by going stony broke because I was too ill to work, and had spent all of our savings on products and appointments. How may people study for 5 years on one particular 'disease' (covering enormous territory as can bypass jargon etc) to find a FREE solution? The motivation of quality of life is far stronger than any exam... career etc.

    I found the most benefits came in integrating ALL of the available ideas... Medical studies, NUCCA, Chiropractic care, Massage, TRT, Healing, Nutrition, Psychology (the nature of suffering), Reflexology etc etc...

    What would you do if you found ideas that you believed could potentially help every Meniere's sufferer, including those who had no money? Would you get yourself well and just forget about it, or would you stay and try to share it with as many as possible, knowing that you are going to get strong opposition in doing so? I chose to stay and will continue to do so.

    It's never on the open boards that people come and try my ideas, because they don't want to get hounded. It's always via PM. Like Diane said, "I would think, as a collective group of desperate and sick people, we would encourage ALL avenues that promise to reveal ANY of the hidden mysteries of menieres." Sadly that just doesn't happen.

    I am therefore not entering the debate as such, just stating things that continually get missed. I advocate for those who can't afford things like NUCCA and who are willing to consider new ideas.

    (Just noticed Cheese has posted, so I'll post this and then read it).
  6. cheese

    cheese New Member

    Hi Lee. I just wanted to clear this up and make sure you didn't think I was putting you in any kind of bracket when I mentioned you're name. Sorry if I offended, I was just trying to make a point that these guys shouldn't and wouldn't have as much trouble being "heard" as us "average joe's" .....even though some are far from average.
  7. Mnme

    Mnme Guest

    I wasn't at all offended. In fact, I totally agree with you on that point. Ironically, the majority don't take me seriously because I have no formal medical training, yet only someone like that is free to 'skim the universe' for all the good stuff! :)

    Cheese I rarely give out compliments (being Aussie and all!), but you have a really good, sharp mind.

  8. MedievalWriter

    MedievalWriter Ryan's Rose Pvt Ryan Winslow KIA Iraq 4-2006

    Henrysullivan, all your posts still don't address the salient question:

    Is the change in your MM status the direct result of your NUCCA and not natural remission? Natural remission does occur in MM. You may have been so blessed!
  9. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Hi Lee,

    "You may not notice you're doing it, but you keep bypassing what I say because it isn't specifically about NUCCA."

    No, I bypass you because I do not understand much of what you say. I'm sure that what you have to offer is valuable; but honestly I cannot decipher the code. I speak plainly, I am not dumb; but I cannot understand what you write. It seems all very general, too general for me to derive much meaning. I'm sure there's meaning there, but please, if you want an opinion from me, you are going to have to state your case and your findings a little more clearly for me to respond. I'm sure its just me. Some folks just don't commumicate well with others. That may just be our problem with each other. I truly don't mean to ignore you. I just don't get what you have to say enough to respond.

    Please forgive my ignorance,

  10. Mnme

    Mnme Guest

    Sorry about that. I'll try to be clearer then.

    I said I'd found success (full resolution of all symptoms) outside of NUCCA. And yet within the same thread, only a few posts down you wrote 'No poster to this site has claimed to have been cured by any other means."

  11. milo

    milo New Member

    Ok I'm going to weigh in again. I'm not speaking for anyone else here but I can very positively say that my cessation of symptoms, now passing 7 months, is a result of Nucca. As I have said a number of times on this board, my hearing started to come back within 10 days of my initial treatment. I still have poor hearing and ear fullness as well as some minor balance issues but that's it. I have been in remission lots of times, and for months at a time (5 at the most) but I have never had hearing come back.

    Here's what it is simply: Atlas sublaxation can cause mm or mm like symptoms. Not every persons mm is caused by Atlas Sublaxation. If a persons mm is caused by Atlas Sublaxation then there is a very good chance that Nucca can help. Period. That's the truth of the matter.

    Nuff said.
  12. MedievalWriter

    MedievalWriter Ryan's Rose Pvt Ryan Winslow KIA Iraq 4-2006

    Hearing fluctuation occurs with MM. Your hearing fluctuated back. You've been blessed too!
  13. milo

    milo New Member

  14. TracyInIndy

    TracyInIndy Guest

    At the risk of putting a bullseye on my back.

    Milo you raised a valid point but didn't go far enough. "Not every persons mm is caused by Atlas Sublaxation" I believe this to be true. But the converse is true as well. Not every person with Atlas Sublaxation has mm or mm like symptoms.

    To all those who have been helped by NUCCA:
    Now here is the thing that I've not seen anyone propose. Have you noticed the number of people on this forum misdiagnosed with MM? I propose the following theory.

    Maybe the reason NUCCA worked for you is you never really had MM to begin with. Maybe people who truely have MM can't be helped with NUCCA, only people who's MM like symptoms are caused by the Atlas Sublaxation.

    Now here's the rub. The only way to know if you have true MM or Atlas Sublaxation is to try NUCCA. My problem with NUCCA is finding a qualified and competent practitioner. Just because someone is certified doesn't make them competent. Knowing how much damage can be done by someone incompetent I'm not willing to risk my health, but that's me. Add to that I haven't been dx with MM but an atypical form I've not seen anyone post success with NUCCA who didn't suffer from vertigo (which I don't).
  15. pardonme

    pardonme Guest

  16. eedad1

    eedad1 New Member

    Mnme, with all due respect (and probably my inability to read all the posts you have posted) I am irritated by your responses on this subject. Like Henry, I cannot decipher your code or more specifically your treatment plan. I am not a fan (or enemy) of Hank, but at least he has been nauseatingly clear about his theory and treatment plan. You have been very vague, irritatingly so, yet claiming this fantastic success rate. Maybe I have to wait for your book that you have indicated was coming. This is not an attack, but intended to be feedback from 1 member that wants to know (an hopefully benefit from) and is becoming impatient and put-off by your lack of frankness. Please enlighten us.
  17. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Hi MW:

    No, this was no coincidence, although I have doubts that I will convince you of that. You would have to be in my head with me to understand. Until my first adjustment, I was having vertigo every 2-4 weeks, averaging about 2-1/2 weeks. My first adjustment changed all that immediately. I felt noticeably different when I walked out of the chiropractor's office. My head was opened up, unlocked, breathing again. That's the best way I can explain what I felt. Looking back on it, however, I do not believe that my local chiropractor ever really got me 100% adjusted. Last week Dr. Dickholtz did. Prior to Dr. Dickholtz, I "went on the wagon" from chiropractic for over a month, had no vertigo; but found myself resorting to traction to help keep me stable. Since seeing Dr. Dickholtz last week, I am every bit of stable and no longer feel the need to resort to traction. As Milo indicated, this is no coincidence. Now my tinnitus is decreasing daily and I am virtually back where I was before my first vertigo attack, except for these blasted tubes that I had the ENT put in, somewhat on a lark when I was drawing at straws early on. Any hearing loss I have is mostly attributable to that bad decision on my part. I will agree with you on one thing, however; I am blessed.

  18. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    That's funny! Very direct and very clear. I can tell I would like you, eedad. Is by chance the 'ee' for electrical enginner?

  19. Mnme

    Mnme Guest

    Eedad. You are right (though not entirely polite) in making your point. I do not want to irritate, make you impatient or put you off. Although the approach I use draws from many fields, overall it's straight out of my own head. Unique... so I can't refer you to any one site. It takes 260 pages to explain, not a post. So I tried to offer hope, but I guess my time will come.

  20. milo

    milo New Member

    Exactly. It's the whole idiopathic, basket of symptoms thing. I was definitely dx'd with mm and I have almost all the classic symptoms except tinitus. I have noticed over the years on this board that peoples symptoms vary widely. For me it just shows that again averyone is different and vestibular problems manifest differently (or slightly differently) in all people.

    I saw my Neurotologist a few weeks ago. I explained Hank's theory as best I could. She was somewhat sceptical at first but admitted that yes the area at the base of the skull is jam packed with all kinds of complicated wiring and interconnected tissue and that Atlas Sublaxation could be responsible for MY problems.

    It's hard for me at least to put hope into a treatment. I have been so very disappointed in the past. Having said that I am certain that I have discovered the key to my problems. Be sceptical (not you Tracy) if you like. I don't mind. I'm only trying to offer help.


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