Here is my Problem With NUCCA and Atlas Alignment

Ohhhh it's so frustrating. While all the arguing, debating, considering, gathering evidence etc goes on in this forum, I meanwhile keep seeing people in my home town who are referred by 'word of mouth', teaching them my ideas and watching as they resolve their symptoms. I have never yet had one meniere's sufferer who hasn't been helped... but then, those who come want it badly, so they do the necessary work. I just shake my head that I have tried so hard to get this news out on this forum. I put the odd post out now and then, knowing that those who were as desperate as I was will find me, but most don't notice. People seem to listen most to the 'loudest'... All the old 'success stories' on the old forum... and the one before that have been lost. So accumulating success stories obviously doesn't work.

MedeivalWriter, I wish you could come and SEE the results I regularly see. It would knock your socks off! My husband has gone from being a Bricklayer to a qualified Masseur (at age 47!) to support me. I have now gone to many people's homes when they are in the midst of a vertigo attack and stopped it right smack in the middle of it. But better still I can explain why this method works... totally backed by research and logic. AND you can do it all yourself. No money for anyone. No xrays, no appointments... I was so frustrated years ago that I have now written a book about it. That's a lot of work to prove a point! But it's such a valuable point that I just felt I had to.

Lee

 

Lee, if I recall correctly, your theory is more closely related to the muscles of the neck, jaw, etc., and how trigger point therapy can resolve vertigo and heacahes that arise as a result of traumatized muscles in this region. If this is what you are saying, then I agree with this theory 100%. In fact, I strongly feel this is what is causing my "vestibular" symptoms and headaches.

However, I still remain adament that the actual disease of meniere's in people who have been carefully diagnosed with it is caused by reasons that are still unknown. Moreso a chemical dysfunction in the vestibular apparatus of the brain rather than muscular problems.

Therefore, I do know, and will admit, that muscular problems of the neck or jaw can cause vestibular symptoms (tinnitus, dizziness, vertigo, pain, etc.) but this is separate than people with meniere's that find no relief even when they try trigger point therapy.

I hope this all makes sense.

 

Lee, I'd love to hear more......espescially in regards to the research and your specific approach. Although I've been around here a year now I haven't seen much in the way of your findings. I've anxiously been awaiting your book though!

 

Yes, you have just talked about the tip of the iceberg. Nassman, there are reasons why most aren't helped ... very specific reasons. And do you want to know the funniest thing? It's all in the medical journals! It's gone missing, but I aim to do my best to make sure that it's not for long. There are so many people here suffering needlessly.

Lee

 

See, how 'single minded' I am Amethyst? I try my best to make sure these ideas keep slipping through to forum slowly but surely. Thanks for that.

Lee

 

Bang on! That's precisely my experience as well here in Canada and with more than just one specialist. I think that somewhere along the line they are taught in medical school to treat patients like pesky, uninformed children. All I really ask is to be treated with the same respect that I give the doctor. If I bring some information to the office and you disagree with its validity, then go into the trouble of explaining exactly *why* you disagree. If I point to studies that you disagree with, then you (the doc) should point to studies that support your contention...and so on. I don't ask anyone to agree with everything - or anything! - I say. I just ask that it be taken seriously and for the doctor not to show contempt for my intelligence.

This probably stems from some deep insecurity on their part. I always encourage my students (music) to ask me anything they want and to probe and doubt as much as possible.

I have inquired about a plethora of various treatments that have obviously worked for some people, only to have them poo-poohed. I think this is why so many of us end up seeing chiropractors and all sorts of various therapists (some with doubtful credentials!) - they give us the time of day and take us seriously.

Lastly: I am a firm believer in allopathic medicine! I just don't want to be treated like a child.

George

 

I've never had a NUCCA treatment, though I did see a "regular" chiropractor for years. He helped me tremendously with various problems. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford to go anymore and my insurance wouldn't cover treatments. Same with accupuncture. I loved that! The practitioner I went to, I truly believe, while not "curing" my MM -- afaik there isn't a simple answer for any of us -- did help to slow the progress somewhat. Oddly enough, my chiropractor's wife had bouts of vertigo, had been to many doctors, loads of tests and no one could find a cause. No benign vertigo, no mm, no tumors, no ... nothing. He would give her adjustments which she said helped her temporarily.

As far as the MM itself, there could be a correlation between trauma and the development. I've had a few head traumas way back when I was in my teens (now 52). But I didn't start having symptoms until I was around 40.

The doctor who finally stepped forward and dx'ed me with MM told me mine, in his opinion from all the tests I'd had done, was auto-immune related.

If that's true, and I don't have a reason to doubt him, given my family history of rheumatoid arthritis, etc., then no amount of alignments or adjustments will help stop my MM. It would probably make me feel better in general - I have what's called a military neck with some compression.

Again, many things can help us feel better and cope better. What works for one of us may be a complete disaster for another. All we can do is try, do what we can and hopefully, support each other here.

 

I've had menieres for than 25 years.The doctor told me that I could have been born with it who knows.It took a blow to the left side of my head to bring it out.I've learned to live with it Over the years.I abused my body from car wrecks to alcahol and everything in between.I have been seeing a chiropractor for a month now and my body is feeling better.My neck is sore and it hurts not as bad as it was before I started seeing a chiropractor.If it can give me a piece of mind i'll give it a try.My chiropractor told me its retraining the spine to go back to it natural aliment and keeping it there.No one knows why our bodies respond different to treatments.What would you put your body through to get some releif of any Illness that people have.

 

STILL anxiously awaiting this BOOK....

 

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I certainly don’t want to rile anybody but I have been having a hard time following all the posts on NUCCA and neck treatments for Meniere’s disease. I’ve always tried to keep a clear distinction between symptoms and the pathology of the disease itself. MM is diagnosed on the basis of 4 symptoms: hearing loss (usually low frequency), vertigo, ear fullness, and tinnitus. Of course, people with MM may have more than these symptoms but those are the symptoms that are used to diagnose MM.

Our physicians, if diligent, will try to rule out all causes for our symptoms before diagnosing MM. Even if the docs can not find out the causes of our symptoms, they may still be hesitant to diagnose MM for a variety of reasons. For example, hearing loss may be too minor or maybe hearing loss is at high frequency instead of low frequency. From what I have read on this site, many people go for a long time before a doctor can actually diagnose their problem. Sometimes symptoms have to progress more or maybe there is a new technology that allows diagnosis to be made.

One of the well known causes of vertigo is cervical trauma. I’ve always assumed this includes subluxation of the atlas. I have no problem whatsoever with the idea that neck trauma, including muscle tension, can cause serious neurological effects, including vertigo. However, neck ailments need to be ruled out before a diagnosis of MM can be made.

Some of the posts on neck conditions claim that MM is mainly, if not always, caused by neck trauma and that chiropractors have a technique to correct the problem by repositioning C1 vertebra. I’ve always understood MM to be a disease of the inner ear. This means that an autopsy will show that the inner ear, not the neck, has tissue damage. Hence, I can only follow the argument that neck trauma causes MM if I understand how neck trauma can lead to tissue destruction in the inner ear.

Don’t get me wrong: I am not disputing anybody’s claim that having their neck straightened by a chiropractor stopped their vertigo. That is very different than saying that MM is cured. I have no reason to doubt anybody's experience.

Joe

 

Hi Joe,

Here's one way that neck trauma can lead to tissue destruction in the inner ear. You can download this reasoning complete with pictures if you go back to my first post, http://www.menieres.org/forum/index.php?topic=3080.0 . Essentially, the first vertebra, C1, the Atlas, takes up space. When it moves, it displaces tissues immediatley adjacent to it causing a build up of pressure in those neighboring tissues. Some of the tissues in the vacinity of the Atlas are those of the inner ear. One very strategic element of the inner ear is the part called the "Vestibular Aqueduct." I theorize that that element is crucial in regulating the pressure in the inner ear canal area. When an increase in pressure causes the Aqueduct to close off, the endolymphatic fluid of the inner ear has no pressure relief mechanism available to it. The aqueduct is blocked and will not allow old fluid to escape. As new endolymphatic fluid is cycled in and older fluid cannot cycle out, the natural result is that the inner ear builds up pressure. The increase in fluid and pressure results in a feeling of fullness in the inner ear. As a matter of anatomy, the hearing nerve attaches to the inner ear area right at the base where the vestibular Aqueduct does the same thing. Therefore, as fluids build up at the base of the Aqueduct, the base of the Aqueduct expands applying pressure to the hearing nerve. I believe that this additional pressure applied directly to the hearing nerve is the most likely cause of tinnitus. Because the pressure can only be held back so long before a blow out of some description will occur, the first blow out will be to the Aqueduct itself. Under a certain amount of pressure, the closed off aqueduct must open up again. During that event, the built up Endolymphatic fluid runs out of the canal area through the aqueduct ultimately to be recycled into the body. When the E. fluids rush out of the canal area, vertigo occurs. I say, "rush,"but I only mean that in relative terms. The openings we are talking about are exceedly small to begin with. That is why it does not take much additional pressure to close the Aqueduct.

Now comes the answer to your question. Because the canal area takes a beating after numerous cycles of expanding an contracting, the canal area could easily become damaged. But the ultimate cause of the damage to the inner ear was nothing indigenous to the inner ear; it was the fact that the Atlas, about 1 1/2" away' moved and choked off the escape rout of the fluids that normally flow unimpeeded through the canal system.

Now is my theory correct in all cases of diagnosed Meniere's? Most likely not. Is my theory correct in most cases of Meniere's? I think the odds are with me. As I explained in my first post, this theory explains every symptom I have ever had with that disorder. Not only that, but this theory predicts that if I can lessen the pressure on the inner ear by adjusting the Atlas back to its designed location, the result would be to open the Aqueduct back up and restore the normal flow of fluids through the inner ear canal area. The theory predicts that to happen and that indeed is what has happened. But that is just me. I only had Meniere's for about 6 months before I figured out what was going on and made the correction for it. Many folks on this site have had this form of Meniere's or perhaps other forms for much longer. I have no idea what time does to the equation. It may be that there is a point of no return for the inner ear. Who really knows? I can tell you this, I take a large dose of several vitamins each day. I believe that might help repair the inner ear area so that it might function again. But I have no proof. I've read many comments regarding the need for proof on something before they would try it. I do not think that is necessarily a healthy attitude. That bar is too high. The bar should be set at a rule of reason. Does a potential remedy sound reasonable, or does it not? If it sounds reasonable, it might work and is worth trying or at least investigating. That I believe is what you are doing, investigating. Good for you and I wish you good luck with whatever courses you choose.

Hank

 

Joe, you ask some really good questions. (I just pressed 'post' but noticed Henry has responded... rather than read that first, I'll post this anyway).

Personally, I think just focusing on the neck is like looking at the big toe when a person is suffering from Gout. It misses the bigger picture. NUCCA's for example definitely plug up a hole in our 'piecemeal' healthcare system, but they are still not the complete answer, particularly for those who have suffered for years. It's never as easy in my experience to visit a Therapist and have them 'fix' us, no matter how good he/she may be. Now if they happen to be a good motivator/coach/teacher with the right information, then that's a whole different story.

The first thing I ask people who hear about my success and contact me (I tell them up front I am a teacher, and am not in the medical field) is whether they have been thoroughly checked out by Specialists (MRI's/blood tests..etc). The people I talk with are those who have been told to 'learn to live with it' (by the way, it's not just Meniere's sufferers). Yet inevitably, the moment they walk through the door I can SEE at least a part of their problem!

I've scanned every post on this forum for 5 years now looking for the one that doesn't 'fit' what I believe. I used to find the odd one, so would research it and ask myself why it doesn't fit. If I couldn't see a reason, I'd adjust my approach. How many Docs take the time to do this with a particular condition? The only reason I did is because my actual life depended on it at one stage.

Yes you can see evidence in the inner ear in autopsy. Like you can see evidence in an arthritic knee. But that doesn't mean that's where the trouble stems from. I have had elite athletes go through my country's top line Therapists/surgeons etc... and yet I can often SEE their problem at a glance.

The key isn't in my opinion to theorise a problem, it's to assume something 'fixable' is wrong and attempt to resolve it: this is the Problem Solving process applied to health. You don't rely on theory, you rely on logic and results. The success rate in doing this is startling. But it's also bewildering as it shows me over and over how many are suffering needlessly. So that keeps driving me on.

And yet as a teacher, I couldn't get many people to take me seriously on this forum (in person it's easy). Those who did were very unique personalities with open minds and a willingness to learn. One of these people encouraged me to write this all down. But as I wasn't a writer, I had to learn THAT too! Luckily, she helped me (thanks Kass!). It's taken me two years. Little wonder the answers are never shared, as how many people are willing to put their life on hold to do that? And who happen to have partners to support them?

Joe, your method of communicating would never 'rile' anyone. Over all these years, you have always been an absolute gentleman.

Lee.

 

Just a question: have there been any peer-reviewed papers on NUCCA and MM? I'm thinking of the major trade publications such as JAMA rather than magazines such a Prevention.

Also, have there been any studies done, double-blind and such?

No need to refer me to other parts of this forum or other websites, please, unless they contain the abstracts themselves.

 

Joe,

I do agree with you. I personally do not think that any type of alternative practice (or allopathic for that matter) can cure Meniere's Disease since there seems to be no known cure for it so far. I think certain symptoms can be alleviated or even stopped by alternative practices IF they are not caused by the factors that lead to MM. In other words if it is muscle tension, atlas subluxation, celiac disease, blood sugar problems, blood pressure problems etc that are causing Meniere's LIKE symptoms which have been misdiagnosed as MM by some doctors, then those symptoms can be eliminated by going to the right type of practitioner and taking the right measures.

People like Linda, Toni and Dizzjo come to mind as I write this. They have TRUE Meniere's Disease, they fit the textbook description as far as their symptoms go and I don't know how much NUCCA would "cure" them of their symptoms (I wish it would!). Then there are others who have one thing but not the others, who have dizziness but never had true vertigo, who have fullness but no hearing loss etc. Those people might benefit from going beyond their label of MM because it could be a misdiagnosis and it would be worth their time and effort to check out other options to feel better.

(Is this what you were saying too Nass?)

Lee,

I see where you are coming from and I agree to a point. Meniere's LIKE symptoms can be experienced as "referred" pain from some other source. But then again...it is not and never was Meniere's Disease, it was something else that was misdiagnosed. Those on the forum who have textbook MM would not benefit from TPT or NUCCA. Their necks and back might feel less tense and relaxed but the their symptoms would not be "cured."

I know you have taken this to heart and are using your own experience to help others. Not all chiros or therapists or massueurs do this, they can't know what it feels like so the risk is that we end up in wrong hands or waste a lot of money.

My only concern is that in our research of the RIGHT practioner who knows how many others we could see that might end up making matters worse? It's not easy to find the RIGHT alternative practitioner who knows what he is doing in terms of MM like symptoms.

 

Sarita, thak you so much for this well written reply.

In my 4 years on this site, this is EXACTLY what I have been trying to convey but I have never been able to express it as accurately as you have in your quote above.

Take care!

 

Good job Sarita, well spoken.

Like you state there are some with "classic" symptoms and some without. What works for some won't work for others. And alternative is expensive and yes hard to find Nucca/Trigger Point and all these specialists. Just like with the drugs/supplements etc, they all don't work for everyone the same. I think Pardonme had good point with buy the Trigger Point therapy book and read, learn and try yourself if you can or even present it to a chiro/acupressurist. I bought the book on line used for minimal money and learned a LOT about the body and its muscle/skeletal performance. I personally screamed when a chiro cracked me neck, never went back! But, acupuncture works for me relieving the stress in my upper back/neck area.

Knowledge is Power!!! Menieres to me is really another name for "mystery" and more knowledge we take in the more power we have to help ourselves as individuals with what works for us.

 

Henry,

Thanks for taking the time to explain your theory but I find myself unable to figure out whether it has merit. This is my shortcoming, not yours. Most of my problems are due to my lack of knowledge about anatomical features and the physical properties of the brain itself, not to mention the complex chemical interactions at the cellular level.

However, I do have a science background and can make some comments. You mention the displacement of the C1 vertebra causing a pressure buildup local to the tissue surrounding the C1 vertebra. I can agree that it is perfectly possible for the C1 to displace, then bump into brain tissue, and thereby cause the surrounding brain tissue to move. However, it is the details of the buildup of pressure gradients that I find mystifying.

As I understand it, the displacement of the C1 vertebra is a motion that does not alter volume. That is to say, if the C1 vertebra moves left and displaces 10 cubic mm of brain material on the left, then it will also open up 10 cubic mm of space on the right side. Surely, this will lessen the amount of pressure gradients that can buildup in other regions of the brain.

If you had said that a displaced C1 vertebra intiates an inflammation reaction that extends to the inner ear, then I would be more sympathetic to your argument. I know that inflammations can cause fluid buildup that could damage the inner ear.

I would also be sympathetic to an argument that the same, sudden event that caused a person’s neck trauma also caused damage to their inner ear. There are a few posters on this site who believe that this is what caused their MM.

I certainly agree with you that if a person has a misaligned neck, then they should seek medical advice as to whether this is the root cause of their MM symptoms.

**********

Hi Lee,

You certainly bring up a good point in mentioning that we all need to look at the bigger picture and that we need to make a careful distinction between treatment/management of symptoms versus etiology of the disease. Sarita brings up some good points on how we all need to figure ways to lessen our symptoms.

Don’t sell yourself short. You’ve helped a lot of people and besides, anybody who veers from the accepted will always face criticisms. It goes along with the territory of pioneers.

Joe

 

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Good point Sarita, in fact that's the key problem. I never found one good 'Therapist' who could budge my symptoms. Not one. They never had Menieres for a start, so how could they possibly know the complexities?

That's why when people pay to see my husband, they also get me for free... whether they like it or not. (I used to do it all myself). I'm there showing them how for success they HAVE to do it themselves. They eventually love that empowerment... but it can be quite confronting at first. And it's most definitely not just one dimensional learning. My husband laughs when they get the idea saying "There goes another one of my customers". So as far as his business goes, it's terrible! But he loves being able to REALLY help someone. And knows that the next time we see that person, they will be teaching us just as much as we taught them.

Every Meniere's sufferer has some telltale signs. Not through blood tests, nor xrays... it's through looking at them. I have seen so many photos of people on this forum and see the exact same thing. So in my mind, not one of these should qualify as having 'true Menieres' either, as all potential causes have not been identified and resolved first.

Ah Joe, you're a class act!

Lee