God and forgiveness......

Hey Chris,

I guess my answer would be, what is the use of disputing any of it, Jonah and the whale is a good example. There are great lessons of truth in that story that allow us to take heart. Job is another one.


Whether these people lived physically on this Earth, does that really matter?

That these books survived the millineums are a testiment that God's hand was behind it. It's funny, for most of my life I thoght the very same thoughts as you. But what I discovered was that my religion was me. Some people who don't know me very well might say it still is. And it is a struggle against that for anyone.

But life's trials and experiences finally brought me to a place where none of the factors that used to blind my eyes from what I now consider truth are important.


Evolution? Don't care. It doesn't even matter. That was just an argument that I could use to justify my distance from God. Who knows the truth about all that? How is any of that going to make me a better person or live a better life? It can't.

So for example, when I read Genesis, I know that God wants me to know that both good and evil exist. He wants me to know that I have free will and that I am free to live my life as I please and I can choose good and evil just like Adam and Eve did. He wants me to know that there are real consequences about my choices. He wants me to know that if I choose good by obeying Him, I will find an ultimate reward. If I choose evil by disobeying Him, I will receive a consequence for that. He wants me to know that I am fallible and that because I am fallible, I cannot exist alongside Him Who is infallible. He wants me to know that He has provided for that reality and devised a way that I can be made righteous in His eyes, the only eyes that matter.

So tell me, in all of that you might find in Genesis, what is not absolutely and unalterably true?

Well, the same case can be made for the rest of the books of the Bible. And I except that whether they are literally true, they are truly what God wants me to know. And that is why I must study that book. For if He wants me to know anything, He must tell me. That book is His way of telling me what He wants me to know.

 

Yes, Chris, I believe every single part of the Bible to be Holy Spirit, Divine, and that God is bigger than man's tinkering, or altering in any way shape fashion or form. I have experienced for myself personally the awesome power of God and know what He is capable of. He turned the water into wine. Read Dr. Richard Ebby's book, Caught Up Into Paradise, about how his father invented the bushings that prevent damage from a lightning strike from just that scripture after seeking God. God is powerful. You limit God. You just don't know how capable God is of preventing man from screwing up HIS word.

 

Bottom line is that I have a personal and spiritual relationship with God, have read the bible twice as he would want me to, I do pray every single day, and I try and obey the ten commandments the best that I can. Roll all that up into a ball and I am gonna be ok and don't need the bible or the church to light my way from now on...........it's already lit(and I've stored up alot of fuel in my spiritual lantern).

 

Chris,
You might be interested in reading the Qur'an. Muslims believe that the Bible and Torah were both revelations from God that were corrupted, altered and lost over time. God then sent down the Qur'an as a final message to humankind. The Qur'an corrects the inaccuracies of previous books and gives us the final word on what He wants from us. It is also a historical fact that the Qur'an has remained 100% intact for the entire 1400 years since it was revealed. Not a single letter from the whole Qur'an has been altered in this whole time.

 

No offense Jordan but I'm not interested, because then you are actually suggesting that I change Gods and my beliefs that have been part of me for at least 30 years and that is never gonna happen.

 

I am sorry, Chris. That is not actually what I meant. Muslims believe in the same God and prophets that Christians do. I was raised a Christian and converted to Islam later in life. I do respect your opinion, though, and meant no offense. I just thought you would find the Qur'an interesting on an intellectual level since you have questioned some aspects of the Bible.

 

No problem; and I get the whole idea and concept of right and wrong and heaven and hell so there's no other books or teachings needed - but thanks anyway.

 

Have you read, I'm OK, You're OK?"

 

Yeah I believe so back in a psychology of personal growth class I took back in college, but that was about 22 years ago and I think it was a required reading book for that course.

 

How about, "Women are from Venus, Men Are from Mars."

 

No but my wife uses a "Venus" to shave her legs and I love "Mars" candy bars - lol/jk!

 

I finally decided to offer my 2 cents worth. My God is a loving, forgiving God. He loves me with all his heart and is hurt when I use my "free will" to do something that is not pleasing to Him, but He forgives me. Without this knowledge life would not be worth living. Donna

 

Donna,
I feel the same way about God but I am wondering if there are any limits to God's forgiveness in Christian doctrine. I mean, what if someone commits a very serious sin, feels no remorse and oppresses others through his actions? As a Muslim, I believe that God can forgive all sins (at His discretion), but I cannot assume that I am forgiven if I persist in sinning and do nothing to reform myself.

 

From what I understand the Muslims do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the son of the Living God. I do, and that is where Christianity and Muslim faiths differ. To us as a Christian our forgiveness is totally dependent upon what Jesus Christ did for us when he died on the cross. He forgave us then and it is through his death we are forgiven. So if you reject Jesus Christ, you have rejected the son, thus you reject the Father. In our Bible, Jesus states, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father, but by me." If you throw away the Bible and say you don't need it, you just threw away that very important fact.

 

I can't deal with Bible bashing, because to me, you just bashed and dissed my God, so I am leaving this topic for good.

 

Before I finally leave this topic altogether, Chris I would suggest some reading by Scientists who have proven the Bible is indeed inspired by God.

http://www.tftw2.org/Articles/scienceprovesbible.htm

 

Cynthia,
I did not mean to come across as bashing the Bible and apologize if it sounds that way. As I mentioned, I was raised in a Christian home, and I am familiar with the Bible and the basics of the Christian faith. According to scholars of the Bible (many of whom are practicing Christians), the Bible has certainly been altered over time. This is just a historical fact and not a reflection on people who choose to follow Christianity. I have a Bible in my home and actually read it more now that I am a Muslim because I have more interest in religion these days than in the past and find it very interesting how the two faiths are linked. I realize not everyone shares that interest but the idealist in me hopes that more people will take the the time to learn about other people's faiths. In my conversations with Muslims, I also take the time to correct their misconceptions about Christians and Christianity.

 

Jordan, it was not you that stated that you don't need the Bible. Chris did that, to which I can't carry on further in this topic because of that. There will always be a wall between Muslim and Christianity due to what you say and do with Jesus Christ. You say he was just a good man and a prophet. I say, due to my Christianity, Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah, the Saviour. That causes a huge gulf between us that can never be reconciled. It is all about Jesus and what you do with him.

 

I am gonna be ok and don't need the bible

That is the quote I am refering to.................I leave because of this.

 

I completely understand what you're saying Chris. The thing I know that maybe Cynthia doesn't is that when you feel the need in your life, I'm quite sure you return to the bible and that part that reflects what is going on and re'read (once more) that which will bring you the answer or comfort you seek. Please let me know whether I'm right or wrong. I would like to know if I'm reading you right. You haven't thrown away the bible, nor certainly your beliefs and you haven't stopped fellowship with your peers. You just don't actively read the bible. And really, who am I to judge?