God and forgiveness......

So from everything I have been taught in and out of church is that God forgives those who are sorry, who repent & don't continue with that sin, and who ask him for forgiveness; so does that mean if you don't do all of that that you are not then forgiven.

And if that is the case is it ok for us not to forgive those who have wronged us and are not sorry for it, and who would do it to us again if given the chance to?(and please make this a modern day discussion and not a scripture quoting session).

 

I think God forgives us all without conditions. I think it's we who are conditional in our forgiveness of ourselves and others.

 

I don't think that he just automatically forgives everyone of everything egross and you have to repent and earn it, because if not then we could all just run around committing whatever sin we wanted to without any fear of ever going to hell.

 

Hi Chris,

In my religion (Islam), the steps to sincere repentance (and God's forgiveness) are basically what you mentioned above:

1. Recognizing that you committed a sin and feeling remorse over it

2. Stopping the sin or removing yourself from the situation that causes you to sin

3. Resolving not to commit the sin again and keeping firm in your resolve

4. Asking God for forgiveness, multiple times if necessary (especially if you ever feel tempted to repeat the sin)

To remain steadfast, one must always try to feel remorse and ask forgiveness, increase good deeds, and increase in faith. Just as you like your own sins to be forgiven by God and for others to overlook your shortcomings, you should also try to be easygoing with people, make excuses for their mistakes, and generally become more humble.

Ultimately, God will forgive whom He wills (even if he falls short in the above steps), but I know far too many people who take sins lightly because they think they don't have to work for God's forgiveness. They believe it is automatic regardless of the bad deeds they have committed. As you said, there has to be some incentive to stop committing sins. There is some hard work involved and nothing should be taken for granted. Nothing is automatic.

 

I find forgiveness of other's transgression against me to be a long process. Eventually reach the point of forgivenss but forgetting is the hardest part.

 

I usually forgive a person if they ask me for it and they are 110% sincere & never do it again, otherwise don't even bother approaching me.

 

No! We can't earn forgiveness. If we could, Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross. The way we forgive others & the way God forgives us are not the same at all. He LOVES us unconditionally. He forgives us if we ask for it; however, He knows our hearts. He knows if we're sincerely sorry or if we're just giving lip-service. It's not for any of us to say/predict whether or not God is actually forgiving anybody for anything.

When YOU ask God for forgiveness it's a Chris & God thing - nothing else is involved. It's God fulfilling a promise He made you if/when you told Him you wanted to live for Him. If you're not His, then He won't just give you this ... ... gift of forgiveness. He won't force (for lack of a better word) His gift upon you because by not choosing Him, you reject His gifts as well.

When I asked God to forgive me for ... oh ... not being the type of wife I should, He looked into my heart & knew that I wasn't interested in changing ... not really changing. He knew I was sorry but He also knew what I was going to do about that (i.e., go back to being exactly what I'd always been - stubborn, defensive, etc.) He knew I wasn't going to change - or wasn't ready to change just yet. Technically did He forgive me? I dunno ... but through more work (prayer, sermons, counseling) on my part, I realized my true feelings & started working on them & asking God to help me with my lack of faith & trust & sincerity. I didn't earn anything - I changed my ways & God allowed/caused my situation to change - for the better.

 

God forgives us out of His boundless love. We are not God and we do not forgive perfectly; we put conditions on forgiveness. "you must guarantee me this or that before I can forgive you." God understands that about us and He forgives that sin. Of course you can warn this person about the consequences of his behavior. Let him know about your concern for him. Let him know that you get angry when he does this or that to you.

But when you forgive, you are freeing yourself to move forward, freeing that person of your judgment over him. And in so doing, you are freeing God to work in your life and in His, without your interference.

Not to forgive shows a lack of trust in God. You are actually putting yourself in the role of God - determining who is 'worthy' and who is not of your forgiveness; who will and who will not abuse your forgiveness. Jesus died for all, because all are worthy of His forgiveness; and all take it for granted; and all abuse it.

 

I forgive whether they ask for it or not. Forgiveness is freedom. However, forgiving one does not mean that you must allow the aggressor or abuser into your life

 

So is that forgiving, or forgetting? My feelings evolve on this. But God does not forgive unless we ask. Asking forgiveness displays humility and subjection. So why should we forgive someone who is nonrepentent, and therefore does not care whether we forgive him or not?

I believe that a certain freedom arises from forgiveness. But certain freedom arises from simply deciding to forget about it as well. The difference between the two appears to be that the former involves two parties moving toward harmony and the latter involves one party moving away from discord.

Jesus prayed that His killers be forgiven. So Jesus acted as an intercessor. I believe God therefore acts on righteous prayer for the wicked. But I do not think God forgives the wicked without an act of contrition on someone's part. It is much easier for me to forget than forgive those who are non repentant.

 

Yeh. What she said. Only she did so better and in fewer words.

People who have difficulty with the concept of forgiveness are usually misunderstanding it's intent. Forgiveness frees you and him to move on and for God to work in your lives as He decides. Forgiving does not mean condoning. Don't be a sucker. Tell the guy off; don't let him back in your life to continue the abuse. But remember, his behavior is between him and God; your ability to forgive is between you and God.

 

I hear you, Ms. Donna. And just what does that mean though? If I do not let them back into my life, then what have I forgiven? I am not looking at the scriptures, but does Jesus not tell us to forgive 70 times 7? Well, how do we do that if after we forgave we did not wipe the slate completely clean? That's what God does, isn't it? If we do not restore them to their complete previous status by our forgiveness, then forgiving more than once would be impossible, would it not?

We can not restore to society a non-repentent thief, can we? So how do restore a non-repentent transgressor to our lives? For this reason, true forgiveness can only accompany a repentent transgressor, or at least a demand for repentance placed on the transgressor. Jesus did not say "Your sins are forgiven.". He said that along with the demand to "Now go and sin no more." For these reasons, I presently believe that blanket forgiveness is not what the scriptures call for, but only forgiveness after a demand for repentence, self placed by the transgressor, or placed on him by the transgressed, at which time full restoration would seem to be necessary.

But I can be swayed.

 

I see it as two fold, if you are the sinner you must ask for forgiveness from God and if someone has sinned against you then you must forgive their sins without conditions. Who are we to put conditions on God's love and forgiveness. That doesn't mean you have to let them back in your life. I am not the one who is absolving them from sin, God is.



King James Version: 1 John Chapter 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Matthew 6:14-15 (King James Version)

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

As I see it, there is a basic misunderstanding here Chris and Henry, that drives many of your questions.

A Christian is a witness to God's truth. A witness, not an attorney, not the jury, not the judge. The attorney convinces; the witness does not. The jury decides guilt; the witness does not. The judge pronounces the sentence; the witness does not.

God in His perfect justice (judge) requires payment for sin. Jesus' death on the cross paid in full the price for the sins of all mankind. Forgiveness exists because the debt of sin has been paid - for all mankind. Forgiveness exists because of God's grace toward all mankind; not based on our actions/inactions/merit.

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this not of yourselves it is a gift of God not by works so that no one can boast." Eph. 2:8 & 9.

Man forgives his fellow man as a reflection of God's forgiveness over us. How can we accept God's unmerited forgiveness and not grant it freely to others? Read the parable of the unmerciful servant. Mat 18:21-35.

Or do you prefer the 'unrepentant sinner' to grovel at your feet first before you grant him that which God gave you freely?

Jesus requires nothing from us. He did all the work that is required. The Holy Spirit performed the work of imparting the faith to believe that. We did not first come to Him in faith, groveling at His feet. He came to us first and gave us the ability to be sorry; to have faith; to forgive.

God sees the actions of the unrepentant sinner. He will deal with that man whether or not you forgive him. However, He also knows the sins that are buried deep inside your heart. He will deal with you accordingly, as well.

Generally speaking, the 'unrepentant sinner' knows he is in rebellion against God. He knows he needs a Savior. It's the 'good' Christians that generally present the bigger challenge. They work so hard to stay in God's good graces; trying to achieve that illusive and unattainable goal of perfection. All that work to be like Jesus. But, there is only one Jesus. We are His sinful flock; standing as witness to His perfection, to His ability to forgive and to save.

witness - not attorney
witness - not jury
witness - not judge

 

I understand all that. I truly do. Like I said, my feelings on this have evolved. But when can you know that you have fully forgiven someone? What is the certain attitude or feeling that you get when you think of that person, knowing what they did to you, and knowing that they are still non-repentant. When can you know that you have forgiven someone, who because of something they did, you refuse to even associate with? Isn't that non-association a symptom of non-forgiveness? God forgives us and leaves no distance between. He lets us back in, every time. So if God is perfection, and God is the model, then how can we imagine that we forgive of others while still leave distances between us?

Like I said, I can be swayed. And this is a fundamental question of Christianity. I value your opinion greatly.

 

Because we are not perfect.

Think of forgiving a sin as just forgiving that one act. We are not forgiving the sinner as a reflection of their whole being or their whole life just the act that created the sin.

 

very well said PD - well done

 

"Be perfect therefore as your Father in Heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

How do we apply that scripture if you are correct, that we have dispensation because we are not perfect.

I gotta ponder your second entry. Hmmm...

 

I dunno, man. "Forgive our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." That is forgiving the sinner, not the sin, if I understand you.

 

I don't know about you but I don't commit sin for fear of going to hell. Actually I don't believe in hell, at least not as you may believe. I am motivated to do no harm to myself or others because it feels right. I don't fear God. I believe we're all a part of God. I believe hell is living and not realizing that.