"Expensive Urine" Argument against High Dose Vitamin C

CGR,

I have no evidence to support it, I can only go on my own experience and those of others who have tried high dose Vitamin C. But a spike in symptoms as you go up seems to be commonplace.

Carnyard

 

Carnyard, based on what you've experienced and what you've heard from others, how long does the spike typically last? Days? Weeks?

 

My bowel tolerance level was 22,000mg. I started at 2,000mg adding 1,000-2,000mg per day. The day I started I had a 30 minute episode or rotational vertigo, imbalance, fullness, and hearing loss. I was also nursing a terrible cold or flu that was still with me after two weeks. When I reached 5,000mg, the cold went away along with the dizziness. At 8,000mg, the fullness went away and my hearing came back about 80%. Tinnitus was approx. 4 out of 10. At 10,000mg, my hearing came back 90%, tinnitus 2 out of 10. Stayed that way until 19,000mg, fullness came back, hearing went significantly down, and I had a 60 second vertigo attack followed by dizziness for about an hour. The next day at 20,000mg, dizziness disappreared. No more vertigo. Reached bowel tolerance @ 22,000mg. The next day, I did 22,000mg again to make sure I had truly reached bowel tolerance. I did. Fullness disappeared, hearing came back to 90% but tinnitus increased to about 7 out of 10. No dizziness or vertigo. The next day, I scaled back to 21,000mg. No bowel tolerance. Stayed at 21,000mg. After two, maybe two and a half days, tinnitus virtually disappeared, maybe 1 out of 10 if I really concentrated on trying to hear it.

 

Wow, that's awesome. So happy for you. Hope mine ends up with the same result.

I hope i reach BT soon. This stuff isn't cheap! haha

 

CGR.

I take C-1000 capsules from Vitamin Shoppe. About $21.79 for a bottle of 300. At my current rate, I will go through a bottle every 15 days or so. There is a powder form for about the same price that lasts longer. Vitamin Shoppe has a buy one/get one half price special the entire month of September every year. Good time to stock up. Either way, $44.00 a month is not bad. I could easily spend that on one dinner out with my girlfriend. My last ENG cost me $650.00 out of pocket after insurance. Seems like a pretty good bargain.

Carnyard

 

You're right, it's all relative. I'm just hoping that i hit BT in the 20s and not 50s.

I just bought a boatload of these on sale:

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp;jsessionid=LBWYJHLGB2CAOCQUC4YFAFYKCQL00UNE?id=TL-1060

 

If you start getting up there may want to switch to this:

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=VS-1247

Or this:

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=VS-1018

There really is no way to predict what your tolerance will be.....

 

In my case I have no vertigo, it has burned out. I have had bilateral meniere's since 1992 and had it in my right ear for many years undiagnosed. In the past when my ear starts to clear , I would get a very loud air raid siren noise and that usually relieves the pressure and gave me back some hearing that was not distorted. That would last for a while and then my left ear would fill back up, my right ears is so deaf that it is not as symptomatic and usually stays the same. All my symptoms seem to be in my left ear. Now,for the past year,I get the air raid on and off, but the clearing only lasts for as long as the air raid siren and then it fills up again and I get horrible roaring and pressure in its place. I know there is still some hearing left in that ear but do not know how to get it to stay opened. Maybe taking all this vitamin c will give me the air raid really loud and if I can stand it,clear up my hearing on a more permenant basis. I guess it would be worth the try. I wonder how many people have had good results with vitamin C to tolerance that have had the disease as long as I have. Carole

 

COMPARATIVE CAUSES OF DEATH.
ANNUAL AVERAGE IN THE U. S.
Adverse Drug Reactions 100,000 to 140,000
Automobile Accidents 39,325
Food Contamination 9,100
Boating Accidents 2,064
Household Cleaners 74
Acute Pesticide Poisoning 12
All Vitamins 0
Amino acids 0
Commercial Herbal Products 0 **

*Sources Data as of 1995 from American Association of Poison Control Centers, National Center for Health Statistics, Journal of the American Medical Association, Centers for Disease Control, March of Dimes, Consumer Product Safety Commission, FDA Reports.

 

CGR,

Thanks for posting that informative list of annual deaths and their causes.

How many times do we see posters here telling us two things, one, that we need to make decisions based upon real numbers, real evidence, not just personal experiences or perceptions; and two, we shouldn't trust the safety of over the counter, non-prescription VMSs, vitamins, mineral, and supplements.

Your listing provides very strong evidence to allay any untoward, imagined fears about VMS safety.

If anything, the evidence shows we should have some real concerns about the safety of medical orthodoxy, not the VMS stuff often appearing on this board.

--John of Ohio

 

Ah more fear mongering again John. You're sounding more and more cynical by the week!

Before we get stuck into death by the "unorthodox" medical establishment how about looking at HOW these numbers are generated, what they actually mean. No therapy is 100% safe; we know that. Aspirin can kill if too much is taken. But you and others just pool the whole thing into one big tally and say "there you have it". There are hundreds of reasons why someone might die because of a treatment. Maybe they would have dropped dead anyway, maybe the doctor was negligent or made an error, maybe the patient was negligent! The latter point covers a number of deaths from painkillers (opiates) alone. They simply overdo it. Pilot error as they say. And what about chiropractors? They kill people too. Homeopaths have indirectly killed people.

For example a report from Utah shows a high death rate from methadone. These people were junkies and screwed up the methadone. I don't have time to go into all of this deeply but do some homework instead of painting the whole thing with one brush stroke. It's like saying we will cure cancer one day yet that statement is ridiculous because cancer is made up of hundreds of sub-categories some of which we can cure, most we cannot. It's not that simple.

What I wonder is why doesn't anybody focus on the REAL biggies -- like obesity and massive amounts of junk food in the American diet. This by far is responsible for serious death in the United States. The present state of affairs is so bad that the present generation will likely not outlive their parents because they're all so grossly obese. My latest trip to the US left me gob-smacked at the availability of healthy food and the obesity down I-75 south. Instead we get all bent out of shape over tooth fillings and aspartame and think a Vit D tab will save a large proportion of the masses. I can't figure it out. Sigh.

 

So your argument against vitamins and your justification for the disparity between drug related deaths and vitamin related deaths is that American are drug-addicted, gullible gluttons? Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

I don't think Scott is arguing "against" vitamins. Similarly, just because someone points out the flaws in an argument doesn't mean they are advocating the exact opposite. Scott quite openly says that "medical orthodoxy" is not fail-safe. Nor does it claim to be. I think all he is saying is to be cautious and don't think that just because vitamins are readily available, without a prescription and intuitivley sound good (everyone knows we need vitamins!) that they will cure you of all your ills and are without risks. That's all.

What I don't get, and my reading of Scott's posts indicate we share this confusion is why some people think that "medicine" is evil, risky and under the thumb of Big Pharma. Seriously? And 9/11 was an inside job too I bet. I mean, come on. Equally, "natural" products are not dispensed by loving rainbow dancing angels, for free.

I genuinely do not understand this fear and cynicism (i.e., beyond reasonable caution and questioning) with regard to "medical orthodoxy". I'm going to risk it and use Hank as an example here. He's had great success with NUCCA and attributes that to eliminating his MM symptoms. He's also read a lot and collected a lot of great anecdotal success stories. I'm not going to delve again into all the reasons why this is NOT a scientifically reliable or valid process. But, I will say this. Hank is a builder. He's formally studied it, he's qualified, he's licensed. He's an expert. So, if you were looking to build a house and you could choose between Hank and a guy you met over the internet who's had a crack at building his own house after watching some other builders and talking to them and reading up on some stuff on line, who would you choose? I'm not saying you completely disregard the self taught guy, just that you consider who you have the most confidence in. I suggest that if you are building a house, that guy is Hank. So why not apply that same rigour in treating your own body?

 

With all of the other contentions aside, the data show that very few are harmed by vitamins, minerals, or supplements. That's the only real safety issue here, the one that has been contested.

Yes, lots of people die iatrogenically, from doctor-administered drugs and procedures. But that's irrelevant to the two questions at hand: Are VMSs safe; and are VMSs effective?

The effectiveness question will not be resolved. Some are thoroughly convinced that only the drugs and procedures of orthodox medicine should ever be considered by those suffering with Meniere's. Others believe that a number of alternative treatment approaches described in detail on this board---based upon abundant user-proclaimed successes---are worth considering.

The argument about the later will not be settled. Each side on that issue is recalcitrant. But the issue of VMS safety, like it or not, is resolved by the paucity of any data anywhere showing any harm.

I'll continue to take my daily lemon bioflavonoids, vinpocetine, gingko, lysine, vitamins C and E, and a few others. As for the past five years (except for an interlude where I thought I didn't need to take all this stuff) I will continue to live without a single Meniere's symptom.

Others will continue to take their daily diuretic and restrict salt intake. When symptoms continue in the face of all of this, they will eventually get a gent injection or two, to kill off offending inner ear tissues. Eventually, when the disease migrates to the remaining good ear, the parade of Meniere's orthodoxy will continue there, too.

But neither of these will cause any side effects outside the inner ear (well, except for the brain fog the conventional methods fail to treat or suppress).

I'll sleep well tonight, knowing even better now that VMSs just don't cause any deaths. I'm content, regardless of anyone else's untoward concerns. I'll eat, drink, and live a rather normal life tomorrow, regardless of why this might be.

--John of Ohio

 

I'll answer that, not for Hank, but for dozens of others here who have dilgently chosen to undertake alternative, "non-orthodox" Meniere's treatments. It's very clear.

The orthodox stuff failed. The things the experts, the physicians, prescribed and administered, simply failed to bring symptomatic relief, often after many years and many thousands of dollars of fees.

You are suggesting, are you not, that all of these folks stay with conventional Meniere's therapies, because they come from well-trained doctors who specialize in this disease, even after years and thousands of dollars of failure?

Yours would seem to be a wise and prudent course, if conventional medicine really had treatments that brought real, lasting symptomatic relief. Sadly, as virtually every poster here can attest from personal suffering, that's just not the case.

What would you personally suggest to those who have exhausted all of what conventional medicine offers? Would you so cleverly turn the same phrase the doctors so often do? "Well, learn to live with it. There's nothing more that can be done."

--John of Ohio

 

Terrible analogy meant to ridicule rather than seriously debate. There is no evidence whatsoever that 9/11 was an inside job. There is plenty of evidence that Big Pharma in the past has repeatedly done unethical things in order to promote their products, hide potential side effects, and try to legally bludgeon anyone who gets in their way. Comparing the two is silly.

Look, if medicine could fix my problem, i'd be happy to take it. In fact, i am taking Ativan because it's been working for me. I hope to get off it if and when the VMS treatment works. Why? Because Ativan, as with many drugs that "help" has a nasty bite that comes with it. VMS doesn't.

As for doctors, there are a rare few good ones. Most that i've seen, and i've seen plenty in my day, can barely scratch their way out of a paper bag. It's mostly because they are not taught to think creatively, listen, or spend more than 10 minutes with a patient. It's not really their fault, i guess. I blame the system (e.g. medical schools) mostly. They are not evil... just selfish.

 

Carnyard,
I am wondering if you experienced hearing loss when your MM was active? If so did your hearing come back or get better and by this I mean documented thru an audiogram?? Just
Greg

 

JOH,

You're talking in polarities again and that's just not the case. CGR you're right - that analogy probably was over the top. Its intent however was to illustrate that not everything is a conspiracy and that this is not an "either/or" debate.

JOH, no-one has said that anyone should ONLY use medicine and I can't believe that you're suggesting that medicine NEVER brings relief and that ONLY VMSs can. It's not that simple. And, for diseases like MM or migraine or CFS which are chronic and which ebb and flow it can be difficult to determine what, if anything you are taking is actually helping. All I am urging is that people not expect miracles from medicine (medicine never claims it can work miracles anyway) but that they also not dismiss medicine completely and that they also do their research about VMS or any alternative treatments. This things are NOT risk free. And they are not financially free either. The companies that sell these products are JUST as interested in profit as "Big Pharma".

Like I say, "medicine is bad/natural is good" is just a false dichotomy. Period.

 

Trinity,

This is an excellent question and I wish I had a better answer for you. No one has really studied if hearing and/or balance heals itself with proper treatment over time. There are just as many opponents as there are advocates for MM Virus theory. Since no one has found a cure for MM, there is no reason to study what happens after MM and I doubt any study like this will be forthcoming unless virus theory gains more steam and becomes the accepted medical explanation for the origins of MM.

From my own experience, it is too early to tell. The prevailing wisdom is that any damage done to your hearing or balance systems is irreversible. But 2 years ago, I could barely get out of bed. Today I am fully functional with effective if not perfect hearing in my MM ear. I am always hopeful that 100% recovery is possible.

Carnyard

 

Greg,

Yes I experienced hearing loss through a documented audiogram. Several actually. I plan on having another audiogram after I have been on the maintenance dose of Vitamin C for six months. I would be happy to post a before and after audiogram comparison for the benefit of anyone interested in high dose Vitamin C as a option.

Right now, I can only judge how the hearing in my left ear compares to my right in everyday functions like using the phone. Before Vitamin C, a phone conversation in my MM ear sounded muffled like the adults from The Peanuts cartoons. Now, I can clearly hear the person on the other line and make out every single word with no difficulty. The only difference between the two ears is the person sounds farther away in my MM ear. Like they are talking to me on speaker phone and are not directly speaking into the receiver.

Carnyard