Demon Possession

As a follow-up to my last post, for obvious reasons I borrow this recently offered by Kim:

Monday, September 28 - Colossians


For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body, and you are complete through your union with Christ. He is the Lord over every ruler and authority in the universe. 2:9,10

 

I have been thinking alot of what has been said in this thread and in Holly's thread. I was reading the book of Jude today, written by Judas the 1/2 brother of Jesus the Christ. He calls himself a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James. Both Judas and James have books written by them in the bible . Both brothers of Jesus both totally believe that their brother was the Christ the promised one, Messiah, deliverer. I was thinking my sisters would tell you all my good traits and many of my youthful mishapps, bad decisions....whatever. Beyond a eyewitness account this in itself is remarkable and enough to make me believe.

Also as far as Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the Life no one comes to the Father but through me. ( I read this in a post recently) Didn't Jesus say, "When you see me you have seen the Father. I was thinking in essence wasn't he saying....God is the only way to Heaven. Just another thought I am throwing out there for discussion.

 

Henry tht is just crap! God owns the natural world, the "soul of nature". God is the Supreme Being, the All, the Maker. Do your historical and cultural research on something beside the Bible before making any more remarks disguised "in purity of heart". Not everyone is a Christian for gosh sakes. You have no idea what those poems mean because you are completely closed minded and stuck. Explore something outside your self-protected house of thought. The earth is God's realm an no other's realm. Good grief! You insult folks with your preaching and unknown to you you insult yourself.

Blessings to all.

I should stop reading this thread!

 

Hank,
Sorry you feel this way. I printed these poems/verses because they say strong things to my heart. You can see from them that I am not some lost lamb of Jesus', but a Pagan through and through. Maybe that troubles you. I interpret these verses or poems quite differently than you did.

"I am the Death that must be so that Life may continue,
For Behold, Life is immortal because the living must die."

All things die, and our bodies are recycled, but the spirit is eternal. Death allows us the freedom to live a new life, take a new perspective, regain our youth and strength. LIFE is immortal, not the body! Pagans believe in reincarnation.

"I am the strength that protects, that limits;
I am the power that says No, and No further, and That Is Enough.
I am the things that cannot be spoken of,
And I am the laughter at the edge of Death."

Can you stand up for yourself? Can you tell death and pain and misery: NO or No further, or That is enough, I draw the line at that?
We are capable of a wide range of behaviors as humans, but that doesn't mean ALL behaviors should be tolerated. We should limit ourselves, govern our wilder more negative impulses. Each of us has to make this choice: how are we going to choose to act? Can you look death in the eye and laugh? I can. I am not afraid. Could you look Satan in the eye and not be afraid? You can if your soul and spirit are in the Light. Can you love the scamp, the rogue, the prostitute? Can you love the person who is possessed and doing and saying terrible, hurtful things? Can you see a body ravaged by disease, and show compassion and love? No one likes to talk of the bad things in life, but we are stronger for overcoming them. when you turn out the light, that does not mean the dragon standing it the room goes away! It has to be handled.

"Sing to us and cry out,
And the Power will be yours to wield."

It is not the power of Darkness that will be yours, but your own power returned to you! The power to act compassionately and strongly
that was taken from you by your fear.

"Blow me a kiss when the sky is dark,
And I will smile,
But no kiss returns;
For my kiss is the final one for all mortal flesh"

I fear no evil! YEA THOUGH I WALK THROUGH THE VALLEY OF THE SHADOW OF DEATH! I have been as intimate with death as a lover, yet I have no fear. Hank, I say to you...why do you give your power away to this Satan, this dark god? Why are you afraid? If Jesus is indeed with you as a powerful force for good and light, you would not fear it. Neither should you seek it out. I know. The Pagan concept of the Dark God is a VERY hard one for Christians to understand. He is the Challenger, the adversary. Generally one respects this aspect of creation, but does not worship it until you are VERY advanced in wisdom and understanding. Can you look at the evil in your own soul and know that it does not control you? As a human we make mistakes, but we also learn from them. Can you forgive yourself and others for their actions against you? I hope this helps you understand.

 

Paul,

It is a Christian belief that the world became Satan's realm, after the fall of man. That doesn't mean everything on earth is evil, it just means that there are evil forces everywhere.

I can't answer for Hank but I can tell you that I studied philosophy and world religion on the graduate level. I also practiced Buddhism and explored other "ways of life and houses of thought" before I accepted Jesus as my Savior. After I became a Christian, my faith and belief became my sole house of thought. There was no further need to explore because I found what I believe to be absolute truth. Why would anybody who found what he or she considers total truth look for something else?

Shining has an opinion and Hank has an opinion. It's obvious that these two don't share a belief system and it's just as obvious that you and I don't.

Maybe this topic is just too heavy for the forum and we all should stop reading this thread.

 

We are not afraid of Satan - Hank, me, Leviticus, the other Christians - we believe he is capable of doing us great harm if we do not protect ourselves through Christ. That means stay away from things of Satan. Our God is all powerful & almighty. He will and does protect every one of His children from evil.

You have made your decision. I have made mine. I will not try to talk you out of your decision & won't entertain any attempts to talk me out of mine. I'm just posting this to defend some of the stuff Hank said that really touched my heart.

 

and at the same time He was saying I am God. Just as the Gospel of John starts out: In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God.

 

Shining. I am on my Blackberry. I will be back with you. I will just say this as I go down the road, I admire the way you handle yourself and can discuss these things. People CAN discuss difficult issues without losing their heads.

You are a credit to your coven!

 

{Also as far as Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the Life no one comes to the Father but through me. ( I read this in a post recently) Didn't Jesus say, "When you see me you have seen the Father. I was thinking in essence wasn't he saying....God is the only way to Heaven. Just another thought I am throwing out there for discussion.

and at the same time He was saying I am God.}

When you see ME, Shining, you have seen God! When You see Joy or Hank or a tree or a horse, you have seen God! But the only way to dwell with the Highest is by living a good and clean life, such as Jesus did, such as Buddha did, such as Djehuti did. I know. you may not believe in my interpretation. It's okay! I happen to think this thread is helping me to think about the concepts involved, and that is a good thing. I know I am never going to convert anyone, and they will not convert me, but at least let us try to understand one another, love one another!

 

Hank, You believe in what you say strongly. Its okay. Doesn't bother me at all. You have not been impolite or abusive, even though we disagree. I don't think you can explain these Pagan verses in a Christian way....you have to consider that they were written by people who have a radically different point of view. Do you know how STRONG my belief had to be for me to risk Hellfire, as I was brought up to believe, and take on this new truth? I was brought up Southern Baptist. Anyway, I enjoy talking theology, but I want folks to know I am NOT trying to convert anyone to being Pagan. That is a decision best made for oneself in their own heart. I respect ALL religions. Blessings.

 

Yes, Shining. We can agree to disagree and do so with love and peace :-*

 

you are a good and kind person. I have become hotheaded on this topic, so I now disengage and I shall not ever read it again. However, I shall read new books to explore and learn more about what has been discussed here by all.
Cya elsewhere on the forum.

Again, blessings to all for prosperity of every kind.

 

Hank: So here is that about which I wonder. If this second school is wrong in their belief that the Holy Spirit is still at man's disposal to perform supernatural feats through man even today, then what are we to think of demon possession? In other words, although according to the first view above, God decided that the power of the Holy Spirit should be withdrawn from man's grasp after the first group of apostles passed on, I can find no Biblical reference tells us that Satan did the same on his side, calling off demon possession. So if man has no power and authority over demons today, has no supernatural tool at his disposal, and since Satan's personality plainly would not allow him to stop inhabiting men's bodies on his own, then did God simply leave man at Satan's mercy with no tools available to deal with supernatural infirmities such as demon posession? How is man supposed to deal with the supernatural forces that are against him unless he is given some sort of supernatural tool?

Hank - Why did you start this post if Jesus is the light? Wouldn't it stand to reason, in your belief, that he is the tool? To follow him (Jesus) will keep you safe from harm. Seems to me that if satan has so much power to do wrong through man on this earth, he could start and stop possession at will. To fool us all.

 

I think the original question is still valid (I don't even remember if I posted an opinion.) I believe that all Christians (by Christians I mean those who have accepted Jesus into their hearts and claim Him as their Savior) are indwelled by the Holy Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit can reveal evil and lead us away from it. I believe the name of Jesus rebukes Satan and drives him from from around us, and even from others. I don't think we have the power of the Holy Spirit "at our disposal." I believe God allows to operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit when we are in His will. Some believers don't agree. My belief is based on my experience personally and also my experience witnessing others operate in the Gifts.

Regardless, the name of Jesus DOES drive away demons and evil. I have seen it in action enough to believe it.

 

exactly!!

 

Hi Shining,

Again, thanks so much for your demeaner in all this. I too find the subject fascinating.

Regarding fear of Satan, Joy's right. I understand from the scriptures that Satan has no power over me that I do not give him myself. So a much larger fear is of my own weakness rather than anything that Satan personally could do to me. No, if I stay right with God, I have much more power over Satan, than he me.

I read your interpretations of the poems and I give them credibility. Why shouldn't I? After all, those poems were crafted to conform to your interpretation. But what is so fascinating to me is that in doing so, these poems also conform without question to Biblical scriptures exactly as I described. Now is that pure coincidence that someone would have authored these poems with the intent to align with your interpretation, with no possible root to the Bible's scriptures, yet when also compared to these scriptures they fit like a right hand in a right glove? I ask you, is that not just the strangest coincidence? I say maybe not. At the very least it should raise a certain suspicion, enough for anyone substantially interested to perform some additional investigation. Don't you think? And as you can tell, I gave the poems a fair read, actually a very fair read, a study. I looked deeply into those poems. And understanding the scriptures to whatever extent that I do, other than that which I wrote, that interpretation came into view quite clearly. I did not force it in any regard. So even though you plainly have your own valid interpretation of these peoms, knowing now how they align with the scriptures of the Bible, can you tell me without the possibility of error that your interpretation is 100% correct and mine 100% incorrect? You have certainly been charitable in this discussion, and fair. And I pledge to be as fair as my senses can direct me. That being the case, does not a fair reading of these peoms give at least the most meager modicum of credence to my interpretation?

 

I concur that Jesus referred to the Holy Trinity. Now to your second paragraph point, Jesus said essentially, 'That which you do to the least of your brothers, you do it to me.' I suppose that if Jesus were God, whether Holy Trinity or otherwise, and if doing to the least of our brothers is doing to Jesus, God in the flesh, then perhaps that might mean that Jesus, God, is the least of our brothers. The least of our brothers is Jesus, is God. Then if that be the case, we are all God by the transitive nature of all of that. The problem is that the interpretation I speak of here is not consistent with the remaining scriptures. So that is about as close as I can come to imagining that the scriptures might support a claim that we are all God in the flesh.

So beyond trying to justify that idea, that we are all God, at least in the scriptures, then I have to test it outside of the scriptures. Does this even make sense? For it to make sense, then this system that you describe, one within which one comes to 'dwell with the Highest by living a good and clean life,' had to be designed and installed. It is too orderly not to have some designer and implementer. You speak much of nature, forces involved with nature. But one aspect of nature I have not heard you speak of as of yet is the aspect of entropy. Entropy is essentially randomness. Nature, by itself, tends toward a random state-example, leaves do not start off scattered over the ground, all shriveled up and end up hanging nice and orderly, green, flush with chlorophyll, from a tree limb. No, the system goes the other way around, from order to chaos, not chaos to order. I can think of a million examples of this principle. But the major corollary here is that in order to restore order, not just energy, but intelligent energy, must be imparted to the system. Leaves can't just be raked. No, they must be raked into a pile. That takes intelligent energy. That leads us to the law of conservation of energy. Matter is nothing but energy. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Taking those two principles together, in order to try and make sense of all this, it seems plain that this universe is not in a state of pure randomness, infinite randomness. There is at least some degree of order to the universe. In fact, there is an extraordinary degree of order to this universe. That being the case, the universe, which includes you and me, and Joy and trees, and horses, had to have an author Who initially imparted sufficient energy that the remnant of order that we see today, would still exist. As time expends, even this universe,one with an incredible degree of order, itself tends toward a state of randomness, pure entropy. So nature, in and of itself, has no power over order. Within nature, there is no tendancy toward order. Every natural tendancy is toward disorder. That being the case, how can we expect, that nature could have by itself, created the order in the first place, the remnant of which serves as primal evidence of a single intelligent impartation of energy? Drawing from all knowledge man has accumulated concerning the condition of the universe in which we live, which knowledge allows us to understand the principles I have outlined here, with no evidence to support and with all evidence to deny, that nature could have in any way created itself, how can we possibly even theorize that it did? For your theology to be correct, as I understand it, nature by itself, had to create order. It had to create this system whereby folks who live a good life advance to each next state toward an increasingly higher state. What state? Intelligent energy had to be imparted to this system about which you speak in order that such a series of states even exists. Where did that energy come from? Where did that intelligence come from? And if it came from nature itself, then why is the state of nature that we witness such that this state denies any possibility that nature can create order from chaos? Can you give me one example from nature where nature creates order out of chaos? If you cannot, then I cannot help but suggest that along with the authoritative dimension to this discussion we just concluded, we will have uncovered yet another unexplained inconsistency in your theology. And if we keep doing this, uncovering more and more unexplained inconsistencies, then sooner or later these inconsistencies will have to draw our attention to discuss whether your theology even has a chance to be true. Yes, sooner or later that will have to happen...

Like you, I am enjoying our conversation. Thank you for cheerfully participating.

Hank

 

I don't find the demon possession subject fascinating at all - to me it is very real and scary. I've seen evil and demons/devil in Africa.

 

Aladdin, yes I can only begin to imagine what you have witnessed. And in that regard it is not necessarily what Satan might do directly to someone, especially someone who walks in the Holy Spirit, but what Satan might do through someone whom he inhabits. Now yes, that is cause for concern.

 

Where do you imagine we'd be without the conscientiousness given by the 'first' sin? Nature does follow an ordered path. Humans don't. If we didn't "rake the leaves into a pile" the leaves would return to the earth to give food back to the tree to make it grow with more health and life. Our word for it would be compost?

That is if I understood Hank's input - just throwing it out there...