DBL support group ... everyone welcome!

Discussion in 'Your Living Room' started by Mnme, Oct 31, 2007.

ATTN: Our forums have moved here! You can still read these forums but if you'd like to participate, mosey on over to the new location.

  1. burd

    burd New Member

    For those that have found the things in the book helpful, please don't keep it to yourself. I plead with anyone that has found relief from any other means to share. Someone bought a book for me and I'm excited about learning healthier approaches to healing, as I think too many surrender their health care to professionals that are taught mostly how to deal with symptoms and not the causes, and most aren't too generous with self-help approaches, after all, that's not exactly where the money is.

    If the approaches in the book don't help with my meniere's and other ear related issues, I am certain it will be of great help for some serious and often debilitating issues I have with nerve pain and muscle spasms. The book is giving me more details and a direction to try.

    I think all kinds of approaches to healing and coping can co-exist peacefully if we can respectfully share our triumphs and our turning points.

    I don't know why so often the discussion of alternative methods gets people all edgy. I think we've all been brainwashed as we grow up to relinquish our health care to the professionals and to dismiss alternative methods esp. self help, as worthless. And what works for one may not for another, no matter the method, alternative or conventional. We all know that. There's good and bad in all approaches, validity and worthlessness. Results are as varied as each and every person.

    And that's why it's vital we all share and respect each other's comments. What a shame if one person's approach could really help someone, and that person will never know because it isn't expressed. If we can't share freely without fear of being trampled on for our views, what are we here for?
  2. Mnme

    Mnme Guest

    To all those who are currently applying these concepts, you will soon see how exciting this journey is. You don't need anyone - only yourself. This really is wonderful news! In the near future I will be updating my website to include many more success stories and my journey over the years. But I want this to go forward, not stagnate in controversy. And while I'm here, people will continually claim I'm here for profit (even though I alerted Ray at the beginning). They are very wrong. The ironic thing is, several people on this forum asked me to write this in the first place, but over the years most have recovered their health and moved on.

    If you have the book, you have the ideas and techniques. Everything is there, forever in print. I am very proud of that, and extremely thankful to Pardonme and Kass for helping me achieve this. To those who are extremely ill, or desperate to get your lives back, please know these concepts WORK. Level of success is only dependent on how badly you want it. I have provided a free copy to Linda for those who can't afford it. I can't see that I can do any more.

    Time for me to channel my energy in a positive direction. I would love to stay for those currently exploring these concepts, but the surprising negativity is too draining on myself and my family. To every single person who has bought a book, or been open to consider these concepts, THANK YOU. It is wonderful that you have supported a fellow (ex) sufferer who has been a member of this forum for many years. You have a resource that combines the life-work of many people from a variety of disciplines - all set in context of just how badly Meniere's can get, and even from that extreme, how much is possible.

    And to anyone who in the future downs either me, my work or my friends ... too late. Those who have read the book know exactly where I'm coming from. Unless you have read the book or taken the time to get to know me, then you just won't know.

    Keep supporting each other.

    Good luck!

  3. June

    June New Member

    Lee, I think most of the 'negative' comments - at least mine - come not when you are explaining or promoting DBL but when a post criticizes other ways. The shocked husband comments, the comments including assumptions (very fanciful in my estimation) about why people use the term laby, basically criticisms of all who do not unquestioningly follow the leaders of dbl. It's just as unrealistic for dbl'ers to think they have 'the' answer and get a free pass on criticising others who are earnestly doing their best as the othe way around. Once again, I think dbl got a very positive reception on this board with very few negative comments except when assertions were made that 'others' were 'wrong'. I am still wondering what kind of total acceptance you expected to get in any forum. Let's say you do have THE answer, do you expect people to suspend all skepticism that has kept them out of the hands of unscrupulous healers of all varities to date just because it's 'you' and they should know you are different? I think you are getting a good reception and throwing the baby out with the bath water in terms of this opportunity to spread your word because you are not getting everything you dreamed of asap. It usually takes a long time to do the ground work to get a new business, book or idea to flourish in the greater community.
  4. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Actually, I've been enjoying this thread very much. I've been able to stay much on the side watching it develop. I do not necessarily believe that it is over at this point. But now that everyone who has been leading it has seemingly checked out, at least for a time, I might as well give a few comments regarding how this thread has broadened my understanding of what causes Meniere's symptoms, and that's all they are, symptoms. Anyone who is diagnosed with Meniere's has symptoms, nothing else. In 2006, I learned how to stop those symptoms using the methods I have documented elsewhere on this site. Over the past several years, Lee learned how to stop her symptoms, all the same I had, the same as many or most of you have, and she wrote a book about how she did it. Bless her for that.

    Regarding the book, I doubt that folks who have never written a book before can easily understand what drives it. Having a few years ago written one myself, I understand, I think, why she did it. In a recent post Lee indicated the satisfaction of knowing that the body of knowledge she possessed is now out there, for all time. She has completed that portion of the process, and her life. That is a great feeling, one that is difficult to put into words. Satisfaction, is as close as any other term. But I'll tell you this, there is no way that 99.9% of folks who write a book will ever make any money at it. And they know that going into it. When you receive $5 or $6 dollars for each copy youpersonally must sell, just imagine how many copies you, personally, must sell just to break even with the time you spent writing it. No, anyone who thinks that Lee did this to make a profit, I believe you are just wrong.

    If I know Lee like I think I know Lee, she had to write this book. It became a life mission for her. If I am correct, and I believe that I am, there is no way that Lee could not have written this book. That's the way it is with anyone who writes a book. It is something felt compelled to do, not necessarily for any major goal of profit, but to feel that one has done all that one can do to document something felt important so that succeeding generations might have the opportunity to use it. That's it. That, I believe, is why Lee wrote the book. Thank God for folks like Lee.

    Now, a few observations...One major observation that I believe open-minded people could easily draw from this thread, and perhaps mine from last January, is the proponderance of data consistent with the notion that, if you have Meniere's symptoms there is a very good chance that your symptoms originate not in your inner ear, but in your neck, in your brain stem, and affect or are affected by the tissues surrounding that area, perhaps those in the shoulders and the top of the back. The folks who I am aware of, who once had Meniere's symptoms and who have successfully stopped them, have in common the fact that they had musculoskeletal problems in the neck and shoulder areas. Since I have been here, reading and posting, I have taken note of all the folks who have these same Meniere's or related symptoms, but who also complain of musculoskeletal problems in the areas to which I just referred. Question: Are you one of these folks? The only folks of whom I am aware, who have sucessfully treated their Meniere's, or what I now call more appropriately, Meniere's symptoms, are folks who have through one fashion or another treated the muscles and skeleton in and around the neck area. That fact should serve as a wakeup call for anyone who has these symptoms. The treatment Lee describes is the same treatment I use on my wife, a trigeminal neuralgia sufferer for going on two decades. I know that trigger point therapy and stretching exercises work. I know that fact from dramatic personal experiences using them. Since reading Lee's book, we stepped up the trigger point and stretching exercises I put my wife through and she is doing great. This morning as a matter of fact, she was up at 5:00 am, did some work upstairs and was out the door by 7:00. It was not long ago that I thought such an incidence to be highly improbable, possible, yes, but probable, no.

    For all of the skeptics out there, God bless the skeptics, do not choose to make any of what Lee says, Diane says, or lord knows what I say, as condescention. If you do, please know that that is entirely in your head and is not intended by or from any of us. I know it can easily sound like it is, but please try to imagine how anyone who has had Meniere's, and who has conquered it, and who for that reason alone attempts to tell or perhaps even lead others to what might help them, can find condescention in his in her heart. It is just not there. Yet that term gets thrown around sometimes like it is a beachball.

    Finally, there have been times when I have decided to leave the forum, like Diane, like Lee, like perhaps you. Then time passes; life goes on, and I consider that what made me want to leave was ultimately me, not anyone else. For a message to endure, it must hold up to scrutiny. So it goes with the territory. So if one is going to push a message, for whatever reason, one will always receive scrutiny. Scrutiny is a good thing. It's bashing that is not and that is wht happens from time to time. The bashing, truthfully, hurts. Scrutiny is great. But bashing really sucks. Still, like anything one must take whatever good with the bad. Lee has helped many many folks by her efforts. She has helped me and my wife. Just by intensifying our treatment of my wife's trigger points and stretching, she is out on a job and having another good day. That's what it's all about, having good days. The more you perform that which helps your symptoms to abade, the more good days and the fewer bad ones you will have. That, I believe, is the value and message of this thread.

    Thanks again, Lee, Diane, and everyone who has contributed to the message here. I have personally received benefit from it.

  5. June

    June New Member

    Personally, I hope Lee makes a million dollars on her book and many people read her ideas and make good use of them in their life. I really do. I know some will benefit, hopefully many.

    The condescencion comes in thinking the readers here, do not know, for instance anything about book sales and publishing or wellness or any and all other things discussed. Trust me, they have life (and business) experience, they do.

    The martyr syndrome (what bashing for heavens sake? I didn't see any bashing) leaves me cold. It's just downright silly.
  6. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Well June, as a matter of fact what you just wrote is a fine example of bashing. You just called me a martyr-BASH!. You don't know me, yet you labeled me as a martyr to anyone and everyone who might venture to this portion of the forum to read. And then you say, "What bashing for heaven's sake?" June, really, without knowing it you just made my point.
  7. June

    June New Member

    I cannot compete, Henry, I cede the forum to you.
  8. nassman

    nassman Guest

    All I have noticed in this thread is two things:

    1) Some people have WAY too much free time on their hands.
    2) Many of you who have complained about daily vertigo and severe dizziness have posted EXTREMELY long messages. Seeing these long messages truly diminishes my belief that your dizziness is that horendous. When I have dizziness that I call "bad", simply looking at a screen makes me feel like crap. How you people can post novels on here and claim horendous dizziness is beyond me.
  9. Dan from Colorado

    Dan from Colorado New Member

    I have to weigh in here as well. I have followed this forum for many years and have found good information, that has given me somewhere to turn in light of the fact that "modern medicine" has basically been of little help, other than diagnosis.

    Having said that, I have felt from the GET GO that this thread was a mistake in that it sets a dangerous precendent. Now, that this "support group" that centers around the sale of a product has been allowed, I don't see how we can control or make a decision as to who can or cannot plug a product. I have no way to judge anyone in this thread and I wont...and this is the problem. We as sufferers, cannot tell if we are reading good information or an "infomercial". When the original poster has nothing to gain monetarily, it eases my doubts. I would hate to see this discussion forum turn into a place where people can entice folks into buying their products.

    This whole concept frightens me and IMHO it is not a good idea for this forum. Just my 2 cents.
  10. barcl003

    barcl003 Guest

    I agree Nassman. These posts are far too long. I cannot even concentrate long enough to read them. I need a drink... :) Heidi
  11. nassman

    nassman Guest

    This question is directed to mnme, pardonme, and Henrysullivan:

    All three of you claim to have had great success with the treatment of your symptoms by adhering to the principles/treatments you so-often describe in these threads (be it trigger point therapy, atlas bone correction, massage, etc.).

    As we all know, verstibular diseases (especially meniere's) are very fickle and unpredictable in nature. People can go on remissions for years by doing nothing and others have found remissions via different medical/natural methods.

    Personally, I respect people like Caribbean who describe the benefits of Acyclovir because he not only talks about his successes but is open and honest enough to talk about periods where his symptoms flared up. Others who have used the menniete device, various drugs, etc., have been candid about times that are good and times when their selected forms of treatment seem to not be working.

    So here is my question to the three of you: Will any of you be honest (and honorable) enough to inform the rest of the forumers in the unfortunate event that you have a recurrence of the horrible symptoms of meniere's?

    The reason I ask this is because it is the three of you that seem to be particularly adament that your forms of treatment ARE the cures (or, at least the methods that will dramatically reduce symptoms to acceptable levels) for meniere's disease. You have all spent COUNTLESS hours lecturing the forumers of this site and swear up-and-down that your methodologies work if done properly. So, in my opinion, if you were ever to have a recurrence of your symptoms for prolonged days, weeks, months, or years once again, it would pretty much mean that your claims were erroneous.

    Would you all be man/woman enough to fess up to this by being honest with the rest of us?

    Just wonderin'
  12. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member


    I've said this before, I blame no one for being sketical, not even you. My last vertigo incident was in early January 2007, just a few days before I first entered my first post on this forum. I have written about that incident, but I will recount it to you. I had been going to our local chiropractor, not NUCCA, since Octber 2006. The week before my first adjustment in October, I had a full blown vertigo episode, 14 or so hours like usual. Between my first adjustment in October 2006 and early January 2007, I had no vertigo. I still had symptoms, however, tinnitus and a fair degree of fullness. The day before my last episode was on a Sunday and I was working under my dashboard in my truck. My head was contorted in a confined space. The next morning, I started feeling the vertigo coming on. Because I had come to understand that the first vertebra was the source of my Meniere's I went immediately to the mirror and checked the positioning of my head. My head was so far off center of my neck that I had to stop and show my wife before jumping in the truck to go to the chiropractor. I received my adjustment and came home. The vertigo episode, which would normally have lasted 12-14 hours lasted less than three hours. At the end of three hours, I was back at work. Because I knew then that I was on to something, I went looking for someone to tell. That's when I came up on Menieres.org. I never came here while I was having major Meniere's symptoms, only after I had discovered the source of my symptoms.

    I had my first NUCCA adjusment in late February in Chicago at the office of Dr. Marshall Dickholtz. I wrote here of that experience. There I learned that our local general chiropractor had been adjusting us from the wrong side. Only after a few weeks of NUCCA chiropractic adjustments, started in Chicago and finishing here locally, did I really feel like my symptoms were 100% under control. So there you are.

    My last vertigo episode happened for a reason. If I have another one, it will also happen for a reason. And if that happens, I will come to this forum and tell the whole story, you bet. I would bet that the others inyour list would do so as well. Only by getting the truth out there can folks be helped. Keep in mind, I am one of the few folks on this site, you included, who has completely identified himself. I did that for a reason and I did it on my first post. I did that so that folks would know that I am for real, that I am credible. I am not just some guy who stays anonymous on the web and offers opinions. You can look me up in the phone book if you like. I have nothing to hide. Who can say the same thing? I can think of George perhaps because of his website, and Lee. They the only ones whom I can think of off the bat.

    So really, who is more credible, someone like me, someone who has nothing to gain, who identifies himself, who stands personally behind what he says, or someone else who stays anomymous, and who merely offers opinions?

    BTW, if you would ever like to talk, PM me and I will tell you how to get in touch.

  13. nassman

    nassman Guest


    You totally took my message the wrong way (what else is new?). I almost feel you enjoy these confrontations.

    I may stay annonymous and simply offer opinions, but that being said, I have never imposed what has helped me in an "informercial manner" the way some others here have.

    What I was getting at was that this thread, and the NUCCA one you had started in the past, have recahed many pages with a great amount of people taking advice from you, mnme, and pardonneme. What I have noticed is an attitude from the three of you that your methods are almost 100% fail-safe and you use your own experiences to back up your treatment theories. I find this dangerous because it may instill false hope in the desperate and those that are suffering badly. With such people instilling so much faith in you three, I wanted to ensure that you will be honest with everyone if your (and mnme & pardonneme) meniere's symptoms recur.

    That would be the honest thing to do and would allow people to make an informed decision based on ALL the facts and results.
  14. milo

    milo New Member

    Diane and Lee,

    Personally and selfishly speaking I would like to see you 2 continue on this thread. Don't let your ideas and insights be silenced by "stuff" outside of your control.

    I think that detractors should start their own thread. An endless debate on the merits of DBL is not required.
  15. ToniG

    ToniG Guest

    True. If a debate isn't wanted at menieres.org then start a DBL forum on Lee's website.

  16. nassman

    nassman Guest

    My sentiments exactly.
  17. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member


    I did not take your comments in a bad way. I took it that you like to know that the people you are reading posts from are honest. If a rebound hit one of us, you would like to know that we would indicate so. I think that is perfectly fair. My intent was to reinforce that I have been perfectly honest and pledge to continue. As evidence of my forthrightness, I use the fact that I tell everyone here exactly who I am and that I stand behind my words. That, like it or not, demonstrates a fair contrast between me and most other folks, the identities of whom are not known and the validity of what they say can only be traced so far as one's screen and keyboard will allow. Still, I do not distrust anyone on this forum merely because they remain anonymous. I do not distrust you for example. In fact, I trust that you are truthful to your opinions without fail. I think you have good intentions. I think there are good reasons to remain anonymous. I think that I am no better or worse than anyone whose identity I do not know. So please just take all that in a good way, as I have taken your previous comments.

    Neither my methods, nor Lee's are failsafe. Write that down. There wil lbe a test. I do not pretend that they are and never have. Neither does she or I have missed something. The closest thing that I have said regarding the degree to which I believe that the cause of my Meniere's is universal is that I have stated my belief that many, if not most, Meniere's sufferers do so because of a misaligned first vertebra. I still l believe that. Does that make it gospel? Of course not. Yet to this day, no one on this site who suffers with Meneire's symptoms has reported back that he or she was in alignment when they went to the chiropractor, no one. Many, many, oh so many folks have indicated structural problems with the shoulders, neck and back. Now, does that necessarily prove anything? No it does not. I think that the evidence certainly points to my thinking on this being correct, but that is not proof. It also does not mean that just because someone's Meniere's pathenogenensis is in fact a misaligned first vertebra, that by fixing it they will be cured, or eventually recover fully. It just means that the original cause would have been identified and corrected. Damage must be repaired. My feel regarding Lee's treatment is that it takes another path to the same purpose and in fact could very well be useful in repairing the tissuse that chiropractic cannot. Because of personal experience I have had treating my wife with Lee's techniques and others, I can see that her methods could easily provide a valid extension of the chiropractic approach. By loosening up all those tissues, the atlas can more easily seek and remain in its designed location. Also, the tissues which have over time become compressed can more easily rebound if the muscle groups nearby are worked in the fashion she describes. Also again, there is an electric cord effect here that unless you try this stuff, won't make any sense to you. When you press on a trigger point, many times that sends impulses that are felt in other areas of your body. That gives a reasonable probabalilty that the nerves, muscles and skeleton are tied together is such a fashion that they can influence each other. Nothing I have read on this thread from folks who have benefitted from Lee's techniques contradicts anything I have written or proposed. Quite the contrary. These two approaches complement each other. They both deal with the same body parts. They simply do so from different angles of approach.

    I hope that makes sense.

  18. milo

    milo New Member

    My take on this is that this thread was started as a "support" source for those that wanted to explore DBL. I saw it as a perfect compliment to the book. I'm not trying to be snarkry. There is a place for a debate of course. Maybe those that want to debate things should start a debate thread. This is more of a suport thread. I think this thread took an unfortunate turn. It's too bad. Maybe we can get it back on track.

    With that in mind I would like to ask those that are more learned than I about the most effective way to "find" a trigger point. In just feeling around my neck area I come up with lots of sore spots but I'm not sure if they are muscles or glands etc. I guess I should look up some anatomy references.
  19. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Hi Milo,

    Long time, no talk to:)

    Trigger points will be easy to identify once you discover what you are probing around for. They are lumps in the muscle fiber, oh approximately one inch long, maybe more or less. And when someone, your wife maybe, presses down on that sucker, it really hurts more than you might figure, maybe more than even the tissue right next to it. Sometimes pressing on one of those bad boys can make other symptoms come to the forefront, maybe tinnitus. In my wife's case, it can bring about ear pain. But that's not a bad thing. If your partner can hold down on that thing, and if you can stand it, for say a minute or so with good pressure, then it sort of releases. They say that toxins are released and the muscles then relax. Our experience with them is that there is a neurological relationship between those and pain symptoms for sure, but I understand from Lee's book, also Meniere's symptoms. Lee has indicated earlier that she believes trigger points to originate predominately from certain lifestyle choices and habits. That is the only place where my experience disagrees wit Lee's. Our experience is that TP's originate from nerve impingements. I say that because my wife can go into the chiropractor's office all knotted up with trigger points. After an adjustment, practically like magic, they relax. It really doesn't matter what the reason behind them is when it comes to the treatment. The treatment is just to squish those bad boys hard until they relax. Then the next thing is to stretch the muscles of the neck. We have a regemin we have picked up on recently that really helps my wife. I squish the trigger points first. Then, while pressing on the muscles, say leading from the neck to the shoulder, the hard, tight area about an inch and a half from the shoulder, neck intersection, bend the neck the opposite way and hold it. If done properly, after a number of seconds, that muscle you are pressing on will give up and the head will lay over further. Then I do that to the other side. Then that same thing one more time in each direction. Then lastly, I will take her head and very slowly rotate it to the right, until such time as the muscles resist. Then I keep just enough pressure until the muscles let go, and they do. Then we do the other side and repeat a second set. After that, Winde will put an ice pack on the neck areas and maybe even nod off and take a nap. It really helps her a lot, I mean a lot. And because our experience ties her TN and my Meniere's to the same cause, it makes sense that these therapies could help folks with Meniere's as well.

    That's about all I know about trigger point therapy. Lee's writings have cemented in my mind its validity in treating folks with chronic ailments such as Meniere's and TN. What she's documented IMO is the real deal.


    I almost forgot, a real good place to probe for them are on the back to the right and left of the spine about 4-6 inches down and 2-3 inches from the spine. There are two of them in and around the area I described. Once you know what you are looking for, there are others on the shoulder and neck areas. Just small lumps in the muscle fibers. That's all you are looking for.
  20. charisse

    charisse Been hanging here for 8 years

    I have been going to PT for my horrible back and neck. The gal there does trigger point therapy and it works great. She taught me to do my neck by putting a rolled up hand towel under my neck and laying on it. I have found that using a good massage therapist who knows trigger point has helped me get rid of a massive knot in my shoulder. Once I get worked on I find my anxiety is all but gone.

Share This Page