DBL support group ... everyone welcome!

Discussion in 'Your Living Room' started by Mnme, Oct 31, 2007.

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  1. deercharmer1

    deercharmer1 Somewhere in the forest....

    Hi, Milo!

    Two years ago I was in a ten-week pain management program. During my initial evaluation by the Physical Medicine doc, he told me he wanted me to work on my trigger points. I said "I don't have any." He said, "Yes, you do.." and proceeded to gently press on them. Yeeeeowch!!!! Until he actually showed me, I had no idea what was going on with my muscles.

    Now I faithfully go over my TPs every day. Sometimes I can feel obvious knots in the muscle. Other times I just have to rely on the sharp pain I feel from nerves too close to the surface.

    As for belly breathing, you can lie on the floor, on your back, and put a lightweight object (like a box of tissues) on your belly button. Take a breath, as deep as you can (imagine it reaching your toes) and see if the object rises up with your abdomen. If it does, you've got it. In a standing position, just make sure that the breath you take makes your waistband expand. That's the reminder I use throughout the day.

    Don't worry if you don't do it all the time...I don't think any of us do. Instead, see if you can take a quick time-out every hour on the hour, and do some purposeful deep breathing exercises:

    Breathe in through your nose....slowly...to the count of four. Hold it for two counts, then release it through your mouth as slowly as you can. It helps to purse your lips.

    That should get you started!

    And welcome to the thread!!!
     
  2. milo

    milo New Member

    Great responses people, thanks.

    Pardonme, as for the "why" of the gut holding I don't know. The only thing that comes to mind was that I felt I was getting fat at the time. In actuality I'm getting pretty close to my high school weight. I was probably a 32" waist at the time and now I'm back at about a 34". Oh narcissistic me.
     
  3. Titus

    Titus New Member

    Hi Milo and welcome. If you do decide to go to a massage therapist or any other body work professional, speak with them on the phone to make sure they understand trigger point therapy. You'd be surprised by the number of professionals that confuse it with fibromyalgia or prescribe stretching as a way to "work the pain out". If you apply some good pressure on the points illustrated in Lee's book and the trigger points are active, the pain usually refers to a place beyond where pressure is being applied. I have one in my neck that goes right to the place I get headaches and another that goes to my ear that supposedly has 45% function left. Others give me slow vertigo or nausea.
     
  4. Trinity

    Trinity Bilateral Menieres 20 years, 24-7 symptoms,

    Hi Lee and other forum members. I received my book a couple of days ago and am about 3/4 through it. I am very excited to have something to work toward rather then accepting "The go home and live with it" Response I have heard over and over again. I am not sure if I am grabbing on to my skin or muscle. There is a place on both sides of my neck deep into the colar bone that cause pain to shot up the side of my head when i pinch it. I guess this would be considered a trigger point so I am working on it several times a day. My main problems are severe fluctuating hearing loss, roaring tinnitus, pressure and infrequent drop attacks. Looking forward to the discussion at the beginning of the years. I have lots of questions Thanks Lee for a great book Carole
     
  5. oaktree8

    oaktree8 New Member

    Hi everyone

    I got my book today! I haven't had a chance to open it yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

    I also have a question: Yesterday I went for a trigger point therapy massage, to help me understand where the trigger points are and how it all works. During the massage she worked on some point around the right shoulder, I can't remember which muscle now, and I noticed a high pitched noise in my left ear (the bad ear). Late last night and all day today the left ear has been screaming loud. I keep thinking I'm going to have vertigo soon, because that's what it always meant before when I heard that sound, but I haven't had vertigo yet.

    My question is, could the massage have caused this noise in the ear? And what can I do to make it stop/close up? I'm pressing every point I've found so far--

    thanks
     
  6. pardonme

    pardonme Guest

  7. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Hi Oaktree,

    So much of my experience relates to my wife's trigeminal neuralgia symptoms. Short story, the trigeminal nerve is one of the cranial nerves that attach to the brainstem just above the first vertebra. The nerve in question for folks with Meniere's or Meniere's-like symtoms is the vestibulocochlear, which attaches to the brainstem right next to the trigeminal. OK, there could be a connection there, we should agree ont that. Here's what is important to realize for you and others whose symptoms are affected by trigger point therapy. There are times during which pressing on a trigger point directly affects wife's pain, immediately, and therefore as a result of the trigger point pressure. As I press, many times she will say "That one is going right into my ear." Deep in the ear is where some of her pain is felt, like a knife. (Note, her pain is referred pain, so there is really nothing wrong deep within her ear, it's just that the nerves make it seem like the pain comes from her ear. BTW, several folks on this forum have posted similar experiences having that sort of pain.) So I know that there is a direct connection between these trigger points to one of her major symptoms, trigeminal pain. Because of the proximity of the trigeminal nerve to the vestibulocochlear, it makes sense that if the V. nerve is affected by a nerve impingement, like my wife's trigeminal nerve, then trigger point therapy could indeed affect the V. nerve as well. Many times, during the TP therapy, my wife's pain will be exacerbated, but subside afterward. Sometimes afterward means several hours. So yes, to answer your question, I believe it is quite possible that TP therapy could have triggered the noise in your ear.

    From my experience, basic tinnitus is caused by abnormal pressure exerted somewhere along the vestibulocochlear nerve. Releasing tension on trigger points make the muscles and ligamints that tie them to the spine lay down in a more neutral position. When that happens various other built up forces in the musculoskeletal system may not immediately release. That could leave some of those counteracting forces active which could place abnormal pressure on the brainstem area. Ultimately, if you are able to get all the TP's resolved, then the neck and shoulder muscles, ligamints and bone structure can more easily find a neutral position and the tinnitus would lessened as result.

    BTW, try this. Press on your head from the top with a fair amount of force, does your tinnitus increase just slightly? Mine does. That is how I know that tinnitus is related to pressure exerted on the vestibulocochlear nerve, at least in my case. The same thing may occur by twisting your head hard ro the left or right. I twist mine to the right, tinnitus increases while the neck is in the most tension.

    You have gathered some great evidence to help you resolve your symptoms. Exploit that information for all it is worth.

    Hank
     
  8. pardonme

    pardonme Guest

  9. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    The difficulty swallowing is related to the Glossopharyngeal nerve. Prior to Winde's surgery, her neurosurgeon indicated that a side effect of the surgery was likely that she would have a difficult time swallowing afterward. That would be due to him messing around with the G. nerve during the procedure. That of course is what happened. Ever since then she has had certain problems swallowing.

    The itchy nose,tingly face would likley be due to impingements on the facial nerve, another of the cranial nerves. The problems with speech could easily arise from impingements on the nervus intermedius or even the trigeminal. You see, all of these cranial nerves, governing this whole range of symptoms, are right there together, just above the first vertebra. So it does not surprise me that you could have had all the symptoms you did. If your neck is wrenched, those nerves will be impinged as a result. When that happens, they will be easily impaired from working properly. One of those nerves, BTW, the accessory nerve, innervates the mastoid and trapezius muscles. Those are the muscles within which most of these trigger points can be found. So if that nerve is impinged in the manner I describe, it should not seem surprising that tissues in those muscles could knot up as a result.

    You make an excellent point regarding the nerve pathways in our bodies. What makes it particularly difficult to trace the causes to their symptoms is the fact that, as Lee points out in her book, many of these symptoms are refered from causes, the locations of which are remote from the symptoms themselves. That is why many folks who develop trigeminal neuralgia, for example, first go to a dentist and have a root canal only to find that the root tissues were healthy. Taht is what Winde did. Her pain felt like it was in the tooth, but really the sensation of pain came from the nerve that innervates the tooth but was impinged at a location remote from the tooth. That phenomenon can easily fool people to believe that nerve pain is actually tissue pain; that balance problems are in the inner ear when in fact they may be caused by an impingement of the nerve that carries balance information from the inner ear to the brain.

    Yes, to try and understand it is mind boggling. On that point, I do disagree with the notion that trying to understand all the nuts and bolts of one's symptoms and causes and acting on what one learns is a fruitless endeavor. Medical science needs to do more of that kind of analysis and depend less on traditional medical protocol. Protocol is safe; but protocol many times cannot get to the bottom of the problem.

    Enough of all that. Preachin to the choir, Diane, I know.

    Hank
     
  10. livestrong

    livestrong New Member

    Ok i want to read this book how much is it in US money it only says it in Austrialian money. I really need this book it sounds like it could me!! I am depserate for anything right now!! I am going crazy with this!!

    Love Alisa
     
  11. pardonme

    pardonme Guest

  12. oaktree8

    oaktree8 New Member

    Hi everyone

    Thanks for your responses. It's very validating and encouraging to hear that you think the tinnitus and the headache were caused by the work on the trigger points.

    Diane, what are trigger point injections? And for those of you who have done the Body Logic path, how long might it take to get some real relief?

    I ask because I'm getting really tired. Tired of being dizzy, tired of having vertigo, tired of worrying about having vertigo. People in my life (who are perhaps tired of doing errands for me) are starting to say why not just take the prednisone again? It worked--why put yourself through this?

    I don't want to take it, because after almost a year since coming off of it I finally feel like I'm getting my body back, my joints are finally loosening up and I'm beginning to feel some joy in movement again. Yet I'm worried that the frequent vertigo I've been having this last month may be damaging my hearing and balance systems. And since I've lost almost all the hearing in my left ear, and some in the right, I am very concerned about keeping what I have.

    What would you all do?
    Thanks for your time and support
     
  13. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Oaktree, what I would do is exactly as I have laid out at http://www.menieres.org/forum/index.php?topic=3080.0 . I would couple that treatment with every method to success that Lee has outlined in her book. I would begin tomorrow. The earlier you might start, the better the chance you have of stopping your Meniere's.

    Good luck,

    Hank
     
  14. Titus

    Titus New Member

    Hi Oaktree,

    I've had three sessions of trigger point injections. The usual protocol is that the doctor uses very fine needles and injects either a combination of a steriod and numbing agent (one from the ....caine family) into each trigger point. Sometimes they leave out the steriod and just inject lanocaine or some other numbing agent. Recently, doctors have been using empty needles and just injecting the needle without anything in it. The problem I've experienced is that they frequently miss the exact point so it's pointless (pun intended). I've had an anesthesiologist, a neurologist, and a chinese doctor who is a board certified rhemotologist and certified accupuncturist do the injections. They all offered temporary solutions. The first doctor did the steroid combination and that took away all the pain and most of the dizziness for almost three weeks. But it came back. I didn't want to continue with steroids for other reasons and the next two sessions didn't help as much....only lasted for a couple of days with no pain and also nothing for my dizziness.

    I think if I had been aggressive with the trigger point work after the first injections, it might have made a permanent difference. I'll never know.
     
  15. pardonme

    pardonme Guest

  16. Julie

    Julie New Member

    Received my book today....looking forward to reading it....thanks Lee!

    I also had my first session with a massage therapist....looking for trigger points and hopefully relief from my migraines. She checked my posture and my range of movement in my neck. Also worked on my tmj. It's all seems to be worst on my left side...mm ear is right side? My muscles were very tense....upper back and neck (no suprise)....but I was stunned how tight my lower back is! Since I was there for migraine I didn't mention mm.

    Here's the kicker.....she had suffered herself from vertigo. Her first attack had her down for months. Second, not as bad. She used serc and gravol. I could have cried :'((almost did). First time I talked in person to someone who could relate. She actually asked me info on what could cause it and if anything helped.

    My body seems to be on constant alert to keep me balanced (even when sleeping). She gave me a good workout (definately not a spa treatment) and I am going back on Fri. I'm feeling more hopeful than I have in a long time.

    Hank...they also have chiro at this clinic and I would like to try that as well...hopefully when I've loosened up a bit. She said with how tight I am at the moment, I wouldn't have been able to be adjusted. :)
     
  17. Julie

    Julie New Member

  18. pardonme

    pardonme Guest

  19. Mnme

    Mnme Guest

    I really appreciate these good wishes Tess, Trinity and Julie. :)
     
  20. Mnme

    Mnme Guest

    I've found over and over again that it's the LOGIC behind why someone chronically suffers that is missing. This is why I've met so many physios, masseurs, doctors, chiros etc who treat people yet are suffering themselves.

    Interestingly, a friend once asked a physio why they didn't use TP therapy, as they knew about it. Their honest answer was they couldn't build a career around it as it would be too hard on their (the Physios) body. Their training recognised this. The same thing applies with masseurs. The 'feel good' stuff is nice, but it's the intensive TP'ing that goes directly to the heart of the problem. They may not be able to do this at a sustained level (or as a whole body approach) but fortunately the individual, with the knowhow, can.

    I find it interesting to see how each person applies the logic differently. This is exactly how it should be. In my case, as I was so sick, the last thing I wanted was more suffering. Yet everytime I touched the SCM or scalenes, my suffering would intensify. I knew this indicated that I was on the right track, but I was already hurting too much. As I was doing this alone (without any guidance), I decided 'my way' was to do it without the referred pain to the head/balance problems. So instead of focusing solely on the neck muscles, I did the opposite. I helped them out by working out why they were working so hard, and resolved that first. No dizziness/extra tinnitus etc - rather increasing relief. Neck TP's are unlike any others ('spooky/nervy' pain, rather than 'good' pain) so are naturally harder to get to know. Yet Dye, for example, approached it from a different angle. She was willing to tackle and tolerate the pain up front. Importantly, both ways achieved the same goal. Have another look at Kathy's story (p. 82). No terrible referred symptoms, yet the desired effect. Which way's better? Well that's entirely up to you. When it comes to your body, your confidence, your level of need, you are the ultimate expert.

    I love reading this thread. Thanks again to all who contribute.

    Lee
     

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