Autism, mercury and...Meniere's?

from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4091651
"There was little difference in the neurotoxicities of methylmercury and ethylmercury when effects on the dorsal root ganglia or coordination disorders were compared."

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC490489/
Four case reports are presented of patients who ate the meat of a hog inadvertently fed seed treated with fungicides containing ethyl mercury chloride. The clinical, electrophysiological, and toxicological, and in two of the patients the pathological data, showed that this organic mercury compound has a very high toxicity not only for the brain, but also for the spinal motoneurones, peripheral nerves, skeletal muscles, and myocardium.

from http://www.shoemakerassociates.com/documents/James-ThimerosalNeurotoxicityisAssociatedwithGlutathioneDepletion1.pdf (NeuroToxicology 2004): These results duplicate observations in the same cell lines exposed to similar concentrations of methyl mercury and suggest that the mechanism of ethyl- and methylmercury neurotoxicity is similar.

You provided absolutely NO proof that the flu shot works, and did not respond to my point that even the flu vaccine manufacturers admit in their package insert that effectiveness has NEVER (emphasis mine) been shown in pediatric and geriatric populations.

 

TM, if you learned one day that this had been a wild goose chase would you be ticked that you spent so much time looking at this and ignoring other possibilities including the real culprit? Reality is reality, and who wins the argument does not change reality. The fight should be to discover the unknown culprit not ferret out and punish those who have slighted us. I think it has gotten way off course both nationally and on this thread.

 

Taximom, you obviously have a lot of anger and unresolved issues related to this topic. You are very fortunate that you have this opportunity to vent your frustrations and enter into a debate with others on this forum.
Personally, I have no axe to grind about this topic and I really do not see how this is related to tinnitus, aural fullness, and the vertigo that so many suffer here in this community.
Perhaps you should take your views public and if you really want to make a difference start by contacting your local lawmakers and perhaps someday you will have a voice where it matters the most.

 

* sigh * One can not base any judgement on anything BUT the "facts" presented at hand.

In other words, the studies conducted worldwide are all we have to work with, well that and the facts about Autism. I cant not make an omlet with out any eggs or egg substitute, know what I mean? But I can still make a mean pancake with the box of mix and water. ;-)

No one should be more upset over autism, and now MM than I am. I am directly affected by both. I can say that my family has many people with autistic tendancys, some have never had a vacceen in their lives. We also have a couple of folks with MM, my sister and I for starters. Genetics, is still a fairly young science, as far as sciences go. We only have been able to break our DNA for a few decades so we have a long way to go.
Personally I do not believe a vacceen caused my sister and I to have MM, nor do I believe that a vacecen caused me, my uncle, my nephews and a cousin to be simmilarly affected by "autistic tendancies" and "Sensory Intergration Disorder". Once the vestibular damage happened from that big spin this past summer, I looked into a correlation between SI and MM. There are none. I looked into how to "fix" a damaged vestibular system when you already have vestibular issues. There has been no research I could find (nor my PT) on the topic. I have emailed the "experts" asking where I could start looking for more information. None had suggestions. I think if the vaceens, and Im going out on alimb here, were causing both, then perhaps there would be others like me, with both going on. I have not found anyone with the sensory issues AND MM. Not that they dont exist, but I would imagine it to be more prevelant if there were a connecting link in the chain.
There ARE a small percentage of people that are negitively affected by ANY kind of medicine thats OTC, Pers. or what have you. Its tragic to say the least. I am sorry TM that you are so upset by what could be an "allowed" tragidy. If others are fudging the numbers, we cant know that for sure nor can we create other studies on our own to refute these numbers. We have to go with what is out there, and the studies show there is no link. Will that change? Maybe one day, maybe not.
But this has been a great topic to discuss. Thank you for challenging my intelect.

 

I am not out to punish anyone, nor to win an argument. I have presented facts, facts that are actually supported by independent, peer-reviewed science!

June, I posted those studies in response to Wino, who implied that ethylmercury does not cause any damage to the brain by saying that the previous study I had posted showed only that ethylmercury crossed the blood brain barrier more quickly and easily than methylmercury.

These studies show that ethylmercury (thimerosal is 49.6% ethylmercury) is as neurotoxic as methylmercury.

This is not about anger nor unresolved issues, funshine, nor about axes to grind or frustrations to vent. All I'm doing here is present facts.

If, after reading this, anybody still wants to inject themselves with a mercury-containing flu shot that is statistically ineffective at preventing flu and flu-related pneumonia and hospitalization, that is certainly their choice to do so.

 

I am unclear what action you think should be taken. I admit I have probably confused some of your posts with Earshurts or others so please forgive and correct my assumptions.

Do you think the fda should be abolished or strengthened or modified in a particular way?

Do you think that the mercury-based preservative in inoculations should be banned?

Do you think that inoculations should be banned or optional or compulsory?

Do you think that pharmaceutical companies should be more heavily regulated or not regulated at all? Should their products be tested for purity? Efficacy? Safety?

What about companies making supplements, vitamin formulations, purveyors of herbs ? Should their products be tested for purity? Efficacy? Safety?

Should all pharmaceutical companies be taken over by the government so they can respond to the will of the people rather than the profit motivation?

These are not facetious questions. I really don't know what you think should be changed. I am pretty sure you think big changes are needed but I don't know what they are.

 

It's funny how people can find whatever "facts" they feel like finding:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386881

Whereas the behavior of Met-Hg in humans is relatively well known, that of ethylmercury (Et-Hg) is poorly understood. ...

Taken together, our data demonstrated that the toxicokinetics of TM is completely different from that of Met-Hg. Thus, Met-Hg is not an appropriate reference for assessing the risk from exposure to TM-derived Hg. It also adds new data for further studies in the evaluation of TM toxicity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20200853

This article analyses the data on which the involvement of the MMR vaccine in autism is based. It also underlines the weakness of the anti-vaccine arguments, as well as the forceful, convincing response, based on experimental and epidemiological work, that has been generated following the notable social unrest. Running parallel to the scientific debate, there has also been a legal discussion, which has arisen as a consequence of the more than 5,000 lawsuits filed in the United States, and in which the claims for financial compensation together amount to two thousand million dollars. On 12th February 2009, following a court hearing in which the specific case of a girl called Michelle Cedillo was taken as an example, the court ruled that the overall weight of the evidence was overwhelmingly opposed to the theories put forward by the plaintiffs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17977901

Considered together the present results do not indicate pervasive developmental neurotoxicity following vaccine-level thimerosal injections in SJL mice, and provide little if any support for the hypothesis that thimerosal exposure contributes to the etiology of neurodevelopmental disorders.

 

I wonder what this was all about, too:

 

I just posted Robert Kennedy's "Deadly Immunity" article, in which he discusses exactly what he saw, first-hand, being "fudged" on the government level. Please take a look: http://www.menieres.org/forum/index.php/topic,30615.msg574968.html#msg574968

 

Facts are like numbers you can alter them or take them out of context to support any position or argument. We all know that.
TM I do feel as if you have an axe to grind as you seem to continue to present your stand on these issues with such vigor. You have stated your position many times in the past and we have all been exposed to your opinions. It seems to me as if you are trolling for a debate on these topics for some reason.
Of course you are entitled to continue to post ad naseum if you chose and I can chose not to respond...my point was that if you feel so charged with conveying this message then perhaps it would be beneficial to the rest of the population if you went public and attempted to impact society on a larger scale.

 

Yes, I believe big changes are needed. I'm not sure what the fixes are; I only know some what is very, very wrong.

Yes, I believe mercury-preserved inoculations and other medical treatments should be banned.

No, I do not believe inoculation should be compulsory; it is unethical to make compulsory a medical treatment (or anything else) that is KNOWN to harm a minority, no matter how small the minority.

I think both pharm and supplement/herb/etc industries need regulation--but not by an arm of the government that is staffed by those with a conflict of interest.

And there's the rub; there are ALREADY clear conflicts of interest, everywhere. Medical school instructors are paid consultants to pharmaceutical companies. The director of NIH left to become vice president of the vaccine division at Merck. A vaccine-patent-holder is on the committee that decides the pediatric vaccine schedule.The FDA and CDC have clearly allowed conflicts of interest: http://www.americanchiropractic.net/FDA/Congressional%20report%20reveals%20FDA.pdf

I don't know how things can be changed, or even IF they can be changed. But that doesn't mean we can't discuss it here.

Thank you, June, for not letting this turn into a debate, but for keeping this an intelligent discussion.

 

You have me wondering, too! Perhaps you should ask Solari what this is all about.

 

Probably in an ideal world, we'd be in favor of the same outcome. But dealing with that pesky human nature, it's hard to get to the ideal and that's where different ideas about how things should be handled come into play.

You've brought to the fore some things that you think need attention and that is a good thing. If there are no critics there isn't usually much improvement.

I would like to add a few, not to muddy the water but because I think they are at least equally important and are getting swept under the rug by many would be reformers because they are things that were taken care of. However, they risk becoming huge problems again if they aren't kept in mind. In my lifetime, I went to school with kids who were crippled for life by polio. I remember not being allowed to go to public swimming pools or large cities when there was a polio scare. If you want to see scared parents, you should have seen parents in the summers of my early youth when polio was a real fear that they could not protect their kids from. My father's two sisters died in early childhood from disease that kids never get any more due to inoculations. Many birth defects that were the result of measles and vitamin deficiencies rarely happen anymore. These scourges of my lifetime have been almost eradicated due to government funding of research and compulsory inoculations and additives in foods.

And that's just the things I can remember. I remember being told by my grandparents about typhoid, impure drugs (you never knew what was in patent medicines and often it was narcotics or who knows what), even coca cola had small amounts of cocaine. The stories are endless. If you read the stories written by the muck raker (so called) journalists of the early 20th century you see what terrible things came from complete unregulation and letting the buyer or parent be on their own to figure everything out for themselves. The creation of the fda and similar agencies are what brought about a time when we grew up just expecting everything that was sold to us would be what the seller said it was and in addition it would be safe. While I might agree with you that the fda (and about every other company or agency populated with humans) could use a good review and house cleaning from time to time, the idea that is promulgated by some (probably not by you but by a vocal group) that the fda is the problem and that all we need to do is get rid of them and Big Pharma with their big labs and R&D departments and then everything will be hunky dory is ludicrous. Then it will be like living in China where there is melamine in the baby food. For that reason, I think it is important for critics to say 'this is what is wrong and this is what I think should be done and what should not be done'. Otherwise the critical voices are co-opted and used as evidence that regulation should be lifted (by guess who, big pharma of course).

We need critical voices but we need them accompanied by specific solutions or they will be used to make things worse not better.

That's my 25 cents anyway.

 

June, I totally agree with you. I've never said that we should do away with the polio vaccine. And I never said that we need to get rid of the FDA or Big Pharm. I just think the ethical problems are literally killing people, and things need to change.

What is needed (among many other things that are admittedly over my head) is unbiased, independent research on both the vaccines for the more dangerous childhood illnesses, and more information on the potential dangers of those illnesses. Are the potential dangers more from complications arising from pre-existing conditions (such as a vitamin deficiency) combined with the illness? Why can't advances be made in pre-screening people for pre-existing conditions that might cause complications from both vaccines AND illnesses?

Are improvements in sanitation and nutrition as big a factor as vaccines in preventing these complications? What else could be done to prevent complications?

What about rubella, which is not at all a concern in adults or children, but potentially devastating to a fetus?

I don't think it's right to tell people not to criticize unless they have a solution. Someone might be able to see a problem that others can't see, but not know how to fix it. But by raising the issue, that opens the door for someone else to come up with an idea on how to fix it.

And China has big pharma and government controls, too--and they still have horrible corruption! (But so do we.)

 

I can't find that cryptic report to moderator. I thought this was a good discussion conducted in a productive way.

 

Probably the difference in our approach is degree. I don't think there is any comparison to the state of pharmaceutical regulation or practice of medicine in China and the US today. They are worlds apart. I have had a friend who recently dealt with a tragic situation there who described it blow by blow for me but I believe there have been numerous recalls that show the difference so my anecdotes are not needed.

But basically, I am wanting to say 'Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.' or we will end up way worse off than we are. Scrutinizing, criticizing, demanding action is good, but don't let a suspicion of government or industry make you an easy mark for people who are out to take away the protections and research programs that we now have. Believe me, they are not going to replace them with more perfect institutions, they are going to attempt to take away all regulation and say the 'people want it' when it is not at all what the people are trying to say. Just keep your eyes open to being used and to missing opportunities to discover yet unsuspected culprits in these mystery diseases is all I am saying.

And one more thing, I will take a cure for autism and menieres even if it comes from the devil himself. I don't want a false cure even from an angel. It's not who but does it work.

 

Yes, and no.

You are right--but remember this? http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-04-02-pet-food-recall_N.htm

Yes, the corrupt Chinese companies were using melamine instead of wheat gluten in order to artificially elevate the protein levels of pet foods.

But the corrupt American pet food companies were using wheat gluten (which cats and dogs do not digest well) instead of animal protein in order to artificially elevate the protein levels of pet foods!

The fuss was made about melamine, but hardly anyone realized that wheat gluten should not be fed to cats and dogs in the first place!

(Note: I do not necessarily agree with those who say that nobody should eat wheat or gluten. At this point, I still believe that some or maybe even most people are just fine with it. I'm trying to keep an open mind.)

I think the biggest problem we face is the corruptibility of human nature, no matter which country or which kind of government.

 

But one corruption killed babies (they put the melamine in baby food too) and one gave dogs stomach aches. I don't condone either but there is a difference that matters.

I don't want to wait for tendency of people to be corrupt to change before we cure autism and MM because human nature isn't going to happen. We have to make a system that works even when run by devils because the angels will never be in charge.

 

Well, the other killed pets, too, but I agree with you, there is a difference. And I agree with your second paragraph, too.

 

There is not a single human institution -- no matter how well-intentioned -- that is not suscpetible to corruption. Name me an industry, insititution, corporation, government program, etc. and I can tell you 15 different ways that they are rife with corruption. This doesn't mean we have to demonize anything and everything. Nor does it mean we should never trust anything at all. At some point, you HAVE to go on faith and hope that everyone is doing their job correctly, or it would be impossible to function.