Anyone tried Craniosacral therapy for tinnitus?

Discussion in 'Your Living Room' started by cc635, Oct 12, 2010.

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  1. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    Burd,

    I don't want to start a fight with your or anyone else here but I wonder if your experience could be explained by two things.

    1) As the flu symptoms abated so did some of the migraine symptoms. For many people with migraine being sick with something else ramps up their migraine activity.

    2) The patient experience was excellent. The practitioner was caring, took their time and the procedure and experience in general was very relaxing. This may have had an effect on distress and/or anxiety, which also plays a huge role in migraine.

    Just a thought.
     
  2. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    Hank, is that comment directed at my post? If so I don't understand. Is it OK to post parts of Wikipedia but not other parts (especially if the other parts are critical?).
     
  3. mrdizzy

    mrdizzy New Member

    Dont know about all that jibber jabber from wikepedia but it must do something because after my girl would work on me i would feel increadibly relaxed full of energy. It was almost hypnotic
     
  4. Wino

    Wino Resident Honey Badger

    I may not always agree with the tone of Perses' posts, but I think his point (not an invalid one, IMO) causes me to raise an honest qeustion for this board:

    At what point -- if any -- is it okay to question the efficacy of alternative treatments without causing a huge uproar? It seems to me that I have read about 1,000 different variations of the themes: "my idiot doctors" ; the "evil" pharmacutical companies; "the medical doctors don't care about you"; the medical doctors "want" you to be sick; the medical doctors are "clueless"; the medical doctors are almost purposely harming you; etc etc etc. Yet, few people get bent out of shape and start a fight about it.

    But the moment any "alternative" treatment is called into question? It's like the board goes into meltdown mode.

    There are tons of ways to help each other on this board. Among the things that help are discussions about treatments that have been tried with success, and those that have failed. About the pros of a particular form of treatment, and the cons. About the most efficient use of resources (financial and otherwise). We help each other by warning others about potential BS claims, bad healthcare providers (both conventional and alternative), outcomes, etc.

    I don't see anyone go into meltdown mode when it is suggested repeatedly by many different posters on here that "low sodium, low caffeine and diuretics" DON'T work. Why? Well, because this stratgey is often recommended by medical doctors. Yet the moment a chiropractor, cranio-sacral therapist, naturopath, herbalist, etc says anything at all, heaven forbid that someone question it. I really don't understand it, and I think it brings the overall quality of the information on this board. I know it turns me off and makes me not want to really participate here anymore at times (something I feel in passing that goes away relatively quickly), and judging from the PM's I receive there's a lot of folks who are silent about this on the open board, but feel the same way.

    Why is it so anathema to acknowledge that quackery can -- and does -- exist? Yet there is no such stigma when it comes to attacking medical doctors? I don't know, to me it seems that the best way to help people is to give them ACCURATE information, correct INACCURATE information and let people just make their own choices about what is good for them (whether that be conventional, alternative, or some mix of both)? From there, people can do whatever they want, and whatever they feel helps them.
     
  5. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    MrDizzy,

    I'm not sure what your post is trying to say. My reading of both our posts (including my one to Burd, which you may have not read at the time you posted) is that we are in agreement. You yourself said that your experience with CST did NOT help your MM symptoms, however you felt very relaxed and energised. I have suggested the same thing to Burd - that it is not that the treatment is addressing the symptoms as it claims, but the experience itself is relaxing which has the overall effect of making you feel better.

    Wino, I agree with you. I don't understand the rolled eyes and "I hear you brother" consensus when doctors or "traditional" medicine get it wrong or are rude or abrupt coupled with the "how dare you question my experience/treatment/suggest it was placebo" outrage when someone makes a comment which questions alternative therapies.
     
  6. burd

    burd New Member

    Imnoscientist, I am listening and I understand your thoughts and questions. Of course I can't say for a certainty that it technically and scientifically worked, just as you can't say for a certainty that it was the positive visit and getting past the flu that did it. Because my symptoms didn't get worse when I got the flu but remained consistent with what they were before has me believing the improvement that came after was a result of the CST. If it were to have no affect, technically and scientifically, then through reasoning I would have remained the same as I was before the flu. See where I'm coming from?
     
  7. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    INS, No, its just that someone has a positive experience with a treatment, and then you follow behind with some conclusion by folks who have no bearing on this experience and who's conclusion invalidates this person's real life experience. All I can say is blah blah blah. There is nothing to be served by such a post. You can't go back in time and negate this experience. You can't invalidate this experience because the experience already happened and it is valid. You can't successfully change anyone's mind that might consider this option because they know the person who had the experience and trust the person. But still you try to discredit this person's experience anyway. Its very much like someone is paying you to make posts that discredit the real life positive experiences with alternative treatments such as this. And the posts you make of this type are so devoid of usable information, so bereft of content, so lean on personal effort toward helping others and so strong on rebutting what actually did help others, that all I can really think of when I read a post like yours is truly, blah blah blah.
     
  8. rev

    rev New Member

    As to the question of having tried it - yes, I have. As to payment, no, the insurance did not. In regard to results, like so many of the hopeful "finds" on the board, it did nothing for me. It actually gave me a headache a few times. As for me, it did nothing to help my mm symptoms. In fairness, nor has chiro, JoO's reg., or the Endo Shunt, gent injection.......
    I believe that what works for some won't work for all. That is why John's work helps some, and other treatments help others. We are a long way from a singular "cure" that helps us all.
    You can try it if you have the money. Maybe you'll find your cure. I hope you find something that helps.
     
  9. Taximom5

    Taximom5 New Member

    Umm, because most of us have tried them and found that they DON'T work?
     
  10. burd

    burd New Member

    Hi Wino, I'm going to take my best guess as to why this seems to happen. At least from my point of view, it's the only view I know so well. ;)

    To set the tone, I want you to know that I have a foot in both worlds of medicine...conventional and alternative. I like to keep an open mind as I believe both have benefits that outweigh or compliment the other. They also have their negative sides to them too.

    When something goes wrong with conventional medicine or with pharmaceuticals, something kills someone or causes damage or at the least is ineffective, it is often minimized or brushed under the rug, and even when it is acknowledged, people in general don't make such a big deal of it unless it's fatal or life-altering and they were affected personally. It's accepted. How many times have people flushed expensive medications down the toilet with a shrug or have lost money with fruitless doctor's appointments? They accept it and move on. I'm speaking of the big picture here.

    But when something goes wrong with an alternative method, if something proves ineffective for someone, someone is hurt, or something goes dreadfully wrong, oh god the whole world of alternatives goes under attack, the attitude of "see how bad alternative medicine is and how ineffective it is and how people are wasting their money with it?", when no one is recognizing all the good it is doing and has done for so many. Let one experience not measure up with someone's experience and people are throwing the baby out with the bath water. It becomes labeled as quackery. I have seen that too many times and it's maddening for those that have seen the amazing things alternative medicine has done for others or have experienced for themselves.

    So some get a bit jumpy when yet again someone is trashing the whole system of natural medicine while the mistakes and horrific waste of money that has come from conventional medicine is shrugged off like no big deal. Rarely does anyone label that as quackery. So many thousands of people even die each year because of conventional medicine, it's pharmaceutical-related damage and deaths, doctor's mistakes, misdiagnoses, surgical mistakes, chemotherapy deaths, but the word quackery is reserved for alternative medicine. Not fair.

    In my opinion, there is good and bad in both worlds of medicine. People should never be so rigid as to rule out one over the other. I can tell you from personal experience, and I know I'm not alone here, is that alternative approaches to managing health concerns have saved me so much money and have gotten results that would not have come conventionally. I also know that conventional medicine has saved people I love from dying of heart attacks and have replaced worn out knees and all kinds of beneficial things too. Two sides, both have their benefits and both have their quacks and both have been life-saving and both have hurt people, both have saved people money and both have wasted people's money. It comes down to balance.
     
  11. Wino

    Wino Resident Honey Badger

    Perhaps for many of the folks on this board, that's true. There's no telling how many folks out there never get to this board because it actually DID work?

    And, what's more, is you're making my point for me. If a medical doctor suggests something that doesn't work, folks have carte blanche on this site to yell from the rooftops that medical doctors are idiots and shouldn't/can't be trusted. But if someone goes to a chiro, naturopath, herbalist, etc, and says, "Hey, guys, I tried it and this stuff is bunk," then come the armies of folks screaming about, "How DARE you discredit someone else's experience just because it didn't work for you?!?!?! Shame on you!!!!!"

    If we're going to achieve any semblance of a balanced, helpful view on this site, that door has to swing both ways.
     
  12. Wino

    Wino Resident Honey Badger

    I can't say I disagree with any of this. I, too, have a foot firmly planted in both worlds. In fact, one of the reasons I even got to this board is that I was looking for answers -- or at least possibilities -- that I wasn't finding in the conventional medical world. But, to me, I am every bit as skeptical of conventional medicine answers that don't seem to make any sense as I am of alternative medicine answers that don't seem to make any sense.

    I've said before on this board, if a person finds that their MM symptoms disappear every time they eat a Tic Tac, then by all means Tic Tacs are the "cure" for that person. Do whatever works. But certainly I think there is a value to laying out the two sides from any therapy -- conventional or otherwise -- so people can make infomred decisions. I guess my beef is that there is a segment of posters who hold any and all alternative therapies as sacred, and any questioning about them is met with vocal and aggressive resistance. But that same mentality does not apply when it comes to conventional medical therapies. I think it scares newbies off this board, frankly.
     
  13. burd

    burd New Member

    Wino,
    I am glad to hear we are on the same page about finding what is good in both worlds and being aware of our medical care regardless of which side it's on. I too believe that they both have value and I wish more people would be more balanced when looking at the possibilities.

    In my 6 years here I have seen both sides promoted and both sides damned. As far as those who bash conventional methods in favor of alternative and defend it vehemently, I have seen just as many and likely more with both feet in the conventional world of medicine that have bashed alternatives and throw the word "quackery" around freely despite success stories. Very unfair.

    Both sides should be presented for new ones, as well as the ongoing educating of the forum old-timers, because both sides have done well for so many.
     
  14. Perses

    Perses Guest

    Its funny how quickly MrDizzy and his boyfriend Hank have attacked me. I wish they would simply read what i have written rather than jibber jabber and attempt to switch my words around.

    For the record, I HAVE tried cranial sacral therapy for my headaches and I must say, as Burd and others confirm, it is tremendously relaxing and soothing. Quite often, it would take a significant edge off my headaches. I NEVER, (Hank do you hear me? No changing my words around this time), NEVER said that cranial sacral therapy does not work. I simply challenged a statement made by Hank where he said that (and I paraphrase) it would take little effort to MOVE the 8th cranial nerve (he called it the auditory nerve).

    This, my friends, is all I ask. If any of you know about the location of the VIII nerve, you will understand that it is virtually impossible to move this nerve as it is encased by the hardest bone in man's body: the temporal bone.

    Adios.
     
  15. Wino

    Wino Resident Honey Badger

    Ergo, my point about why correcting inaccurate information is so important.
     
  16. amberini

    amberini New Member

    "I think it scares newbies off this board, frankly."


    Really? I am not so sure about that.
    The bickering, negative tone posts and bullying probably come into play, don't you think? It's enough to be sick, who needs more aggravation?
    Finding a qualified alternative practitioner is a challenge but to be fair, so is finding a traditional medical provider. Combine that with finding one who knows the variations of MM/MAV and treatment options and you have a better change of getting hit by lightning.

    Since there are many scenarios for MM/MAV, there are many possibilities of implementing a positive treatment plan. There is no one size fits all treatments. At best, the medical world stabs in the dark or even more likely, throws enough __it at the wall until something sticks. We have many members who have all had the same type treatment yet many different outcomes and not all positive either.

    It's easy to understand why patients become so frustrated at the lack of progress in regaining their health, the medical system doesn't fully understand this syndrome/disease nor do they seem very motivated to find "the" cure because what exactly are they "curing"?

    Doctors and the few researchers working on this seem to concentrate on one part of the body when the "whole body" should be considered. They want to "fix" or "heal" but have no idea WHY it happened. It seems like that would be an important part of solving a problem, finding out the why.
     
  17. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    Hank,

    Again you are misrepresenting what I’ve posted and are now trying to deflect attention away from the content with the absurd suggestion that someone is paying me to “
    ”. Paying me?? Who the hell would pay me – the Anti CST Alliance?? You are scraping the bottom of the barrel if you are now seriously touting conspiracy theories of that nature.

    Let’s look at what actually happened and what I actually posted.

    CC635 asked about CST and if anyone had tried it. CC635 then made a later post with a quote from Wikipedia about what CST purports to do.

    I then posted another part of that same Wikipedia article (i.e. the very same source), the section about criticisms of the treatment.

    I then also asked Burd to consider the possibility that her symptoms were diminished not because of the CST per se, but possibly a positive side effect of relaxation combined (or not) with an easing of her flu symptoms. Burd and I were both quite cordial and respectful in our exchanges. There was no discrediting or invalidating going on.

    You then let rip stating that I am posting information that “
    ”.

    I find those comments of yours astonishing. You really think that posting another part of the SAME Wikipedia article as posted by CC635 has NO BEARING on a discussion of the treatment?? And I fail to see how that can possibly “invalidate” someone’s own experience. They either had the experience or they didn’t. That doesn’t change the findings of the studies, nor does it invalidate how the person felt about it.

    NOWHERE in my posts on this topic have I tried to change anyone’s mind, nor discredit their experience. That is a bare faced lie Hank and does you no credit.

    You then go on to say that my posts here are devoid of useful information. Again, I cannot believe you are serious. The original poster asked for thoughts on CST. If the poster wanted ONLY positive experiences I expect they would have made that clear. I equally expect that by asking for information the poster wants to know the good, the bad and the ineffectual.
     
  18. Wino

    Wino Resident Honey Badger

    From this point of your post onwards, you could just as easily substitute the words "alternative medicine world" in there, and the statement would be equally as valid. Again, you're making my point for me. When the "medical" world gets it wrong, it's okay to be pissed and bash. But woe is anyone who suggests that some alternative approaches might not actually make any sense.

    Which, frankly, is something I find disconcerting because of a basic fact that seems to get ignored by the fiercest critics of medical doctors -- who also happen to be the most vocal proponents of alternative medicine. And that fact is simply this:

    "Conventional" medicine does not, and has not, made the claim that it "knows" what causes MM, or that it can cure it. Numerous alternative practitioners, however, have flat-out made that claim. They haven't said "maybe" they know, or that their approach "controls symtpoms," rather they are saying, "We KNOW the cause of MM, and we actually cure it." Now, here's the disconcerting part. There are several folks on this board who propose that "medical" doctors" and pharmaceutical companies seem to have a vested interest in controlling symptoms rather than finding cures, and because of this they should be approached with inherent suspicion. But here's the catch:

    If medical doctors are wrong abotu a drug or a therapy, they scrap it and go back to the drawing board. ON THE OTHER HAND, if a chiropractor, cranio-sacral therapist, herbalist, etc. tells you that they KNOW the cause of your disease and it is only because of their specialized training that they can cure you, but it turns out that they are wrong about the cause......what happens to their entire practice? It essentially invalidates their existence. You don't think that is sufficient ulterior motive to question things that seem to make little physiologic sense?

    Let's just use acupuncture for an example here. And I only pick this because it is the only alternative therapy that nobody on this board has claimed to have been cured by. But, acupuncturists will tell you -- I know this because I have been treated by them -- that they KNOW the cause of MM and that their therapy will work to cure it. Now, let's assume that it could be proven that they are wrong, and that the parasympathetic nervous system doesn't work the way they think it does . (For argument's sake, let's just assume that this was proveable and was accomplished). Well, guess what happens to the entire acupuncture industry. All those years of studying, training and practice for nothing, because the whole foundation of the system is shown to be false. Do you see an incentive there for a practitioner not to accurately explain all sides of the equation to you? And I'm not calling these folks frauds, I'm just demonstrating how and why bias works every bit as equally in the alternative medicine world as it does in the conventional medicine world. ut people only get pissed off on this site when the bias is discussed in the alternative context.
     
  19. cc635

    cc635 New Member


    Imno, I wasn't trying to sugar coat this therapy (I am the one asking for others experiences), but I was simply trying to answer Joy's question.

    I am not on this site for controversy and I respect all therapies/treatments that have worked for others. I am here to learn, have hope and to encourage others during their dark times. Frankly, I would give up my life savings to make the ringing stop and have my hearing return to normal.

    Thanks for those that have provided input on their experiences. It sounds like even if it does not help the tinnitus, it will be a very relaxing experience.

    CC
     
  20. Imnoscientist

    Imnoscientist New Member

    CC,

    I didn't mean to give the impression that you were being 'one sided' about CST. Sorry if that's what came across. I was simply trying to point out (as Wino has done so eloquently) that talking about criticisms of a treatment should not be howled down as 'discrediting' the experience of anyone - it's just trying to give readers as much information as possible to make up their own minds.
     

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