A Catholic Monarchy?

Discussion in 'Your Religion & Spiritual Corner' started by barnyardbird, Oct 27, 2010.

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  1. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Thanks, BYB. I am not interested in altering your beliefs, only understanding them. And I am interested in calming the causticism of your posts, which perhaps is happening, I don't know. So since we are talking, calmly and respectfully, you say,

    "Once my life ends,I will no longer have any existence.I don't believe in lying to myself and believing that there's something after my death because the fact is there just isn't."

    Now I can respect that belief, but like so many others who claim the need for evidence that life after death is real, and they have none other than the scriptures that have existed for 5000 years to consider, you seem to be in their same position, albeit on the other side of the fence. You seem to exhibit faith in this belief of yours. By that, I mean that you rely on this belief in your daily life. You make life decisions assuming this belief to be true. You are so certain of it, that for all practical purposes, this belief of yours is a practical fact for you, just like any other natural fact. You seem to have 100% belief in 'no God,' no life after death, to the extent that here you even proselytize that belief, the very thing that gets on your nerves about Christians when they in your mind do the same thing. And you have been proselytizing that belief ever since you got here. Whereas Christians proclaim the Gospel, the Good News, BYB proclaims the bad news, and more vocally and vociferously than most Christians I know of who proclaim anything that they consider good.

    But here is the rub beyond that, BYB. You cry for evidence, but you have no evidence yourself for such a belief. You have no evidence that once life is done, it is done. In fact, the evidence is to the contrary. If, at then end of all this, no life comes from life, as you believe it does, then how can life have come from no life to bring us to this point? Given that life exists in the here and now, and it came out of nothing, how can we begin to believe that given life now, that no life can possibly follow? How does life come from void, and then yield void once it is already established? How does life go backward? How does it retreat to where it came from once it is already established? I believe that is something to consider.

    There is some mechanism that established life in this planet. Without religion, science claims it sprang from nothing. Is that even viable to consider? But even after considered and accepted, to further imagine that life, once established, has the power to extinguish itself seems at least questionable. There is no natural evidence either way.

    Consider a corpse, one that moments ago yielded up the ghost. Moments earlier it lay motionless, ever so slowly breathing prior to breathing it's last. Then it breathes its last and life is gone. Yet to the casual observer in the room nothing has changed. It still lays there, motionless. But life is now gone from it. Life was present, and life left. That ingredient that made that life an individual, seeing the universe through his or her unique perspective, is now left. That individuality of life, that spirit that was there and is now gone, you claim came out of nothing. You might be right. But if it came from nothing, with no established momentum to enable it in the first place, and existed, then once it exists and momentum is established in its favor, how can it possibly die on its own? Objectively, that cannot make sense to me. I can understand nothing coming from nothing; something coming from something. But I cannot understand something coming from nothing and nothing coming back out of something, not in this world. The spirit of life is real while the body is alive. Because it is alive then, how can it die just because the body dies? I ask rhetorically.

    But here is where I am going with this. Those things about which you have faith, faith in 'no God,' faith in 'no life' after death, are antithetical to what the Bible teaches man to believe. Of course you know that. But my larger point here is that, however you came across such strong faith against the scriptures, is what I would like to understand. You have no natural evidence that you are correct in your belief, only natural evidence that you are not correct. So how can a man have so much faith in something he cannot substantiate? How can he refuse to consider that on the other side of the veil of natural life, there remains spiritual life? He sees no evidence either way. He says that he cannot accept anything for which he sees no evidence, yet that is precisely what he has done. He has accepts that no life exists beyond the grave, but without any evidence, the same sort of evidence he claims is requisite to believe the contrary. The belief in life after death is certainly an affirmation. But the belief in no life after death is no less an affirmation. And neither can be substantiated by natural means, which means that, either way, we take our beliefs on faith.

    So this seems not so much a belief in the science of things, or the failure to prove a positive that serves as the germ of your tremendous faith. You can prove no positive either, that life beyond the grave does not exist. So where in the mind or in the catalogue of one's experinces does this tremendous source of faith in something that you cannot prove come from? This is important to me because if I could understand that about you, then I could use that information to bolster my own faith that life beyond the grave does in fact exist. Faith is a generic commodity. It is merely the reliance on a belief with no evidence to support it. In that regard, you seem to have more faith in bad news than most Christians have in Good News. If you could bottle such faith and sell it in flavors, you would certainly be rich in this world.
     
  2. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    I think I stated my comments and my intentions adequately. To better understand them, you should listen to what I am saying. I have said, I am not interested to change his beliefs. I am interested to know the source of his faith in such beliefs, how can he be so sure. That is the theme of my entire post. Listen to it before you post against it. I do not have to connect. I choose to connect. Just as you choose to connect with me. I do not know why you would attempt to dictate to me to whom to connect and to whom not to connect. And really, I am not interested in the answer to that, if it seems a question to you. It is not.
     
  3. rev

    rev New Member

    BYB - I'm with Intrepid, though you say your purpose isn't to bash.

    This looks to be a political/religion issue and probably doesn't belong here.

    For me, nothing new or impressive in this post.
     
  4. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Then why don't we let BYB speak for himself? He has certainly invoked my name more than he has yours, or anyone else's that I am aware of. That must mean that he has certain interest in either me, or what I have to say. Perhaps it is just from a basis of pure curiosity that he has done so. I do not know.

    But he answered me earlier with no one twisting his arm to do so. And I am not twisting now. So why don't we just let him respond, if he chooses to.

    What I have given is exactly what I meant to give, and I am purely interested to know the source of his strong faith in his beliefs.
     
  5. dolfan

    dolfan Active Member

    Hank, I swear to god, we could make a million with the ~ HANK put you to sleep combination fan/waves rolling in the background meniere's sleeping machine~ ......for 19.95, but wait ,call within the next five minutes and get the secound one free. I love you Hank, but in the name of christianity, you could bore anybody to sleep with your long, long sermons.
     
  6. barnyardbird

    barnyardbird Guest

    Henry,
    I find most of your posts long winded.You seem to go on and on and on and you often quote scripture which I bypass as it has no meaning to me.If you were a Jew and quoted scripture from the O.T.that too would have no meaning to me.I have come to accept life on life's terms and to accept my eventual death of death's terms,and those terms are the non-existence or permanence of death.I don't understand why people are so afraid of death that they have to have faith without any evidence mind you of living after one expires and all they have to do is believe in the big guy,the man in the sky.Funny.Beliefs are funny.I once had an aunt who believed in the man in the sky.She was my favorite aunt but she had some strange beliefs.She used to say she believed in the man in the sky and I would say,where,where I don't see anyone and then she would say,he's there alright.Even at 92 she didn't accept death on deaths terms.Sad,truly sad.Denial is not a positive position to take.Acceptance is.
    I've read many many books on this subject.I think the Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty(sp?)was quite possibly the best atheist book I ever read.Excerpts can be read online.I think The Wizard of Oz was the best atheist movie ever made.Anyways I'm starting to ramble so I think I'll stop for now.

    BYB
     
  7. June-

    June- New Member

    FWIW, barnyardbird. Not all belief centers on a man in the sky or an escape of death. I don't know why I bother to say this because I find that atheists think they know what I believe better than I do and so do many believers. But sometimes I just like to speak for myself.
     
  8. barnyardbird

    barnyardbird Guest

    Well June it's good that you speak for yourself as I have spoken for myself.Btw,in a previous post I said The Jesus Puzzle was the best atheist book I ever read.The Jesus Puzzle is not an atheist book.It's a book that asks the question,was Jesus a historical man or a myth and goes on to scholarly refute the New Testament.
     
  9. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Yes, that is what I am interested to know, how you 'have come to accept.' Nothing else that you have written am I interested in. And I expect that few others are either. You say you have come to accept death on death's terms. That means that at some time in the past you had not accepted that. So what, if anything, occurred in your experience, that allowed you to come to accept it as you believe it to be?
     
  10. barnyardbird

    barnyardbird Guest

    Henry,
    Death is all around us.Children die at childbirth and the very old die from old age related illnesses or they just die in their sleep.There are people living in third world countries with little more than scraps of food to eat every day and often die from hunger or malnutrition.Earlier this week a surfer was attacked by a great white shark and died within minutes.Every day in the oceans fish are eating other fish to survive.Those who get eaten die.I don't think man is much different than lower forms of animals except in the fact Man can think,though unfortunately Man doesn't always use his head realistically or logically.That's why I often think the world would be so much better off if women led the helm of all or at least most nations.I think we would have far fewer wars if women were the leaders of many nations.Just last week I was talking to a friend of one of my tenants,a fair-skinned Mexican who holds a Ph.d in economics.He was telling me that in his culture women have no equal status with men.I found that appalling.But getting back to death as I often tend to ramble,I often watch the news on T.V.and occasionally I hear of a killing or a person was run down and the bereaved often say,"He's looking down on me as we speak",or "he's in a better place now",or at a funeral the bereaved are crying while their loved one is interred in the ground.And I often ask myself a question,"Why are they crying?,after all if they're a believer and they believe their loved one is up in heaven,a place all Christians aspire to then they should feel happy and joyous that their loved one has finally reached the ultimate destination,heaven.
    Maybe you Henry can answer that question.

    BYB
     
  11. June-

    June- New Member

    BYB,

    THe answer to your question, imo, is simple if you have compassion for the bereaved. Why are you holding people who have just suffered the greatest loss a person can have responsible for answering the most difficult questions we as humans face?
     
  12. barnyardbird

    barnyardbird Guest

    Huh?June I don't understand your answer.

    BYB
     
  13. June-

    June- New Member

    I can't explain it.
     
  14. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    I understand your answer.
     
  15. carolyn33

    carolyn33 New Member

    The reason there is crying here from family and friends is because we have emotions and will physically miss that person being 'physically' with us. Is that so hard to understand? Have you no emotions? Do you not cry or feel sad when someone you love dies and will no longer sit with you daily and laugh or talk? If not you have missed so much of living. It's more of a missing a person personal thing -a selfish act-You know they're in a better place but YOU want them back for yourself, but again you don't understand feelings. That's it from me BYB you just don't get it. Hopping over the pothole.
     
  16. barnyardbird

    barnyardbird Guest

    I vaguely understand June's question.The way I see it is believers don't allow themselves to accept reality.They pin their hopes on false realities.If I was a believer I would celebrate not just the life of the dead but the death of the dead as well as they have finally reached their final destination of heaven.That's why I admire the black musicians in New Orleans who play uplifting songs at a funeral in the belief that the dead are in heaven.Of course I don't believe this as I'm not a believer.In my life when my mother passed from Rheumatic Heart Disease,which was at the time a childhood disease,I accepted the fact she had a terminal illness and in her case death was better than living.Some people are better off dead than to be kept alive.My friend Norman had pancreatic cancer.Being a physician he knew immediately what he had when he saw his urine was the color of brown.When I saw him last his skin had jaundiced.He lasted 6 months.He too is better off dead.I remember that doctor who assisted terminally ill patients who wanted to end their lives.What an admirable thing to do.Unfortunately the State didn't think so.
     
  17. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    "Why are they crying?" Because they have just lost a loved one, BYB. On a lesser scale, have you never felt loss when a loved one leaves for an extended time? Why should we feel loss there, the person is just fine, just in another place and you won't see them for a while, maybe a long while. So there is sorrow, BYB, even at good bye's. Do you never feel sorrow? I do not care if one is the greatest atheist in the world, or the greatest Christian, Him being Jesus Christ, one feels sorrow at the loss of a loved one. Jesus, and do not say 'Jesus who,' it is not becoming, Jesus wept. Jesus, Himself, God in the flesh, felt sorrow and compassion for the family of Lazarus, his friend, who had died in His absence. Jesus even knew that He would bring Lazarus back from the dead, yet even Jesus was shaken with compassion for the loss of a beloved friend and for the grief felt by Lazarus's family. So grief and loss are perfectly normal reactions to death of friends and loved ones, heck, pets. It is perfectly normal, even for Jesus Christ in the scriptures. And I do not care if you disdain use of the scriptures. I do not care at all. You asked for the answer. This is it. The answer is that it is perfectly natural to grieve. At the same time, Christians realize that their moments apart from loved one's are fleeting. They have faith that all will be restored. All tears will be dried. But unlike you, who says that he can have perfect faith that all will eventually die, Christians have to wrestle with their faith. They have to pray about it, meet about it, talk about it, support one another, all the time living with doubts. No Christian lives with the absolute certainty of faith in life that you seem to have in death. And I do not believe you are as certain as you seem to be. You can't be because you don't know. You just don't know. Until you know, you don't know. And you don't know. You have not been to the mountaintop and looked over. And until you do, you can't know any more than I can. Yet you are certain. Uh Huh. I hear you.

    And you believe that because bad things happen to good people, there is no God. You say that a good God would not let these things happen to His people. This god about whom you speak is a god of your own design. You cannot say the same about my God. My God is not of my doing. Yours is. And have you ever considered the notion that there might just be more to it than your natural mind can imagine? Are you so caught up in your own ability to use your head 'realistically and logically' that you think you know everything about things that from this standpoint you cannot even see? How can you, Barnyardbird, know everything there is to know about life and death, just because at this moment you stand on a vantage point that gazes from the side of life. It is impossible for you to know this. It is impossible for me to know. No one can know. Yet you say that you are certain. I for one do not believe you. I believe you choose to believe what you believe. It is not thrust upon you. The truth of death and what lies on the other side is not evident. And I will admit that I choose to believe what I believe. It is a choice. But, BYB, it is not given information, not in this world. Bad stuff happens. But it gets fixed in the long run for those who have faith. That is faith talking. I choose that faith over your faith. And it is a choice.

    Know that I am not lecturing. I am not mad. On the contrary, I feel compassion for you. I expect you would reject my compassion. Well, you have no power to reject it. Others here feel compassion for you as well. You cannot reject that compassion either. They are free to hold it for you if it wells up.

    Thank you for your answer. I now know what I wanted to know.
     
  18. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    Tell us what reality of personal death you have experienced, BYB, and live to tell about it. That which you accept is not reality any more than that which you say Christians accept. Neither know.
     
  19. Henrysullivan

    Henrysullivan New Member

    I don't know if you've noticed this, but lately I've been leaving that for you. :)
     
  20. Jordan

    Jordan New Member

    Besides missing the person who died, I personally think we cry/grieve because we start to recognize how short this life is. We feel our own mortality and start to think about all the regrets we have in life. We think about all the time we've wasted on trivial matters and how little time we've spent on things that actually make a difference. Once when our neighbor died, I felt sad thinking about the small children he left behind and how they would grow up without a dad.
     

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